Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[vinny]

It's actually not a surprise, not from someone who's been making kits for 25+ years.

I didn't realize kits had come such a long way. Very interesting to see how small they actually were. It is interesting to compare them to the 6 week kits of today. It looks like they are diluted more with even smaller juice volumes than the lower end kits have today.

Regarding FWK, IMO you have it backwards. FWK came onto the scene and quickly caught up with the established vendors. In 2 years they have produced high quality kits at a better price than WE and RJS.

In my understanding of the process and peoples remarks I assumed you were getting substantially better results without the pasturization process. This is why I want to try one so bad, I didn't think what was available to me could compare and you may have noticed I have a strong urge to make comparisons. This scratches the itch a bit

Tiny barrels are dangerous, as you can badly over-oak a wine in a matter of weeks

I bought them for another interest, and I was planning to give a bottle or two a very short stay to see what results I get. Only because I have them. I have to soak and reseal, they have just been decorative for some time. It's a why not, they're there type thing.

I assume with a larger barrel that with less surface area and evaporation that you would get a concentration of flavors that you won't get in a small barrel? I would expect more of an oak infusion with my experiment, than a barrel aging result?

I am still very much in the play around stage. I have better results and a lot more confidence in my country wines over the last little while. I am considering ingredients vs recipe requirements and personal preferences. Some in the past, I made bad choices, adding a large orange that I would never eat and expecting I would want to drink it, but having it overpower the base flavor. The kits are fun and great, but I am always wondering what a homemade fresh juice or grape wine would taste like. How much better it could be? I would bet that you could give me a 96 rated wine and I would say, ya, pretty good, while telling you that the 85 was outstanding. I like what I like and I don't know the difference. I am WAY more critical of something I have made than something bought. It gives me a much deeper understanding of the structure, development, subtleties, and nuances when I can put mine side by side with a retail bottle or just taste it as it progresses.

I am 100% on the side of if it tastes good, drink it. It's about having fun, I can make another one and it will be as good or better. There are so many variables covered above that it just gives good insight into what others are doing, and what works for them. I can question it all day long. Should I just cap it and not look at it for a year? Bottle in 6 months and track over the course of a couple of years?

I appreciate all that you shared. I just wish I didn't have to drag it out of you!
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[vinny]

I wrote a post last spring about making a big red -- mostly a list of techniques that can contribute to success:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/making-a-big-red/

This was a good read for me.

It definitely applies to the Cab Sauv blend that I just racked. It had sacrificial oak, a skin pack, and oak cubes. I wrung most of what I could out of the skins. I'll be interested to taste it in 3 months on the second dose of K-meta.

I followed kit instructions minus the sobate/meta pack and clearing agents. I racked to secondary and added the oak cubes, I never thought of racking off of the lees and continued oaking, there is likely to be more with a skin pack and I honestly haven't looked at was has dropped yet. A quick read tells me reds are often aged sur lie and thus it is only notable when doing it to a white. I was thinking I could always recover the cubes after racking, but what's the consensus of just staying on the lees until I intend to rack to bottle?

I did it with my last 2 kits but the duration was 4-6 months. I have no idea how long I will want to give this until I can gauge it in a few months.

 

[winemaker81]

In my understanding of the process and peoples remarks I assumed you were getting substantially better results without the pasturization process. This is why I want to try one so bad, I didn't think what was available to me could compare and you may have noticed I have a strong urge to make comparisons. This scratches the itch a bit

An important thing to consider is my personal bias in rating wines. I may call one an 89, while someone else calls it a 90 or 91. My idea of "outstanding" with regards to my own wines may be unfair to myself.

Another point is that three wines, e.g., Cabernet Sauvignon, can be rated 89 for totally different reasons. They all earn the same rating, but you or I may prefer one over the other two, and our choices may differ from each other. IMO using ratings is far more precise than price due to winery ego, location, etc., but ratings is far from perfect.

I didn't rate the FWK Forte that I just bottled, as IMO they're young and need time. We also have to consider that I barrel aged from Feb to Nov, and that will affect the ratings vs carboy agedl

I assume with a larger barrel that with less surface area and evaporation that you would get a concentration of flavors that you won't get in a small barrel? I would expect more of an oak infusion with my experiment, than a barrel aging result?

Larger barrels have more evaporation when measured by quantity evaporated, but the percentage evaporated of the total volume is much lower.

I have a 2 liter "decanter" barrel (intended to be used as a novelty party decanter, not for aging) that was spoils from my LHBS, which sat for 25 years in my attic. For fun I soaked it for a week, and got it to seal. It evaporates half the barrel in a month. My 54 liter barrels evaporate about 500 to 750 ml / month. If each evaporated 750 ml/month, that's 1.4% of the large barrel and 37.5% of the small one ...

I appreciate all that you shared. I just wish I didn't have to drag it out of you!

You are a brutal taskmaster!

This was a good read for me.

Thanks! It's pretty much a list of all the techniques I could think of, but the discussion comes up enough that it made sense to record my thoughts. A lot of my posts are driven by discussions on WMT, where we repeat the same things, over and over. I'm lazy and it's more efficient to write a post once then use the link. I'm now reviewing my posts, ensuring that I indicate that most are my opinions and experiences, and YMMV.

I followed kit instructions minus the sobate/meta pack and clearing agents.

I read a premium article on WineMakerMag that states kieselsol and bentonite both remove various hazes, so there is a value is using either or both. IIRC, kits originally included bentonite to clear protein haze. In a few months I'm looking forward to taste testing fined vs unfined FWK Forte wines.

 

[Xlev]

To answer your questions: my girlfriend likes whites that are not too acidic and somewhere between dry/off dry. She had a riesling few days ago and she liked it.

To answer the orher question,you are right,I live in Norway and they dont ship there. I took a chance and got someone to send it over via fedex express.Fingers crossed,not sure if it will make the trip,bit I just had to try!
I have read somewhere that the kits might be able to survive a few days at room temperature,plus its winter now,so I am hopeful

I have not -- my recent experience is with WineXpert, RJ Spagnols, and FWK.

You ordered a FWK? Your location says Norway -- I was not aware that FWK ships out of the USA, as the product is unpasteurized and ships frozen, and must be delivered in a timely manner.

Regarding which wines to make, what does your girlfriend like? Anything she likes commercially, buy similar in kits.

I have not -- my recent experience is with WineXpert, RJ Spagnols, and FWK.

You ordered a FWK? Your location says Norway -- I was not aware that FWK ships out of the USA, as the product is unpasteurized and ships frozen, and must be delivered in a timely manner.

Regarding which wines to make, what does your girlfriend like? Anything she likes commercially, buy similar in kits.

 

[Swedeman]

I took a chance and got someone to send it over via fedex express.

How much was the shipping rate? Estimated delivery time? I live in Sweden, hence the interest.

 

[winemaker81]

To answer the orher question,you are right,I live in Norway and they dont ship there. I took a chance and got someone to send it over via fedex express.Fingers crossed,not sure if it will make the trip,bit I just had to try!
I have read somewhere that the kits might be able to survive a few days at room temperature,plus its winter now,so I am hopeful

That sounds like a reasonable risk. I'm 2nd day from LP, and kits delivered in the NC summer have been cold, lower 50's F (10-12 C), so an extra couple of days at this time of year may work. I understand why LP would not take the chance, as as international shipments can get stuck in a warehouse for a few days or weeks.

If your girlfriend likes Riesling, that would be my first choice. I usually recommend Sauvignon Blanc as IME it works well for those who are not experienced wine drinkers.

 

[vinny]

Hmmm. Canada is so much closer than Sweden. If only I knew some wine enthusiasts in the US that would be willing to forward a kit....

 

[MHSKIBUM]

Price is not the best indicator, as it varies so much and doesn't necessarily indicate quality. I'm a bargain hunter and find wines for < $12 USD that are better than those > $20 USD.

I prefer to use a scale such as the Wine Spectator scale:

95-100	Classic: a great wine
90-94	Outstanding: a wine of superior character and style
85-89	Very good: a wine with special qualities
80-84	Good: a solid, well-made wine
75-79	Mediocre: a drinkable wine that may have minor flaws
50-74	Not recommended

In recent years, every kit I've made has been at least an 80 on the above scale. My goal when making a wine is 85-89 -- anything beyond that is a major success. My rating of the FWK I've made:

Barbara (pre-Tavola) -- 84 -- it's a good wine, but it's a bit lackluster.

Chardonnay (Tavola)-- 85 -- nice Chardonnay aroma and taste.

Sauvignon Blanc (Tavola) -- 87 -- strong SB aroma and flavor, I'm happy to serve this one.

Pinot Noir (Tavola) -- 89 -- made without skin packs, it's strong on fruit and is very clean. After the Barbera, I wasn't expecting as much, but it exceeded my expectation.

Super Tuscan (Forte) -- ?? -- I just bottled this one after 8 months in barrel, so I'm not judging it yet. My guess is 87 or 88.

Rhone Blend (Forte) -- ?? -- this is a field blend of Syrah, Petite Sirah, & Merlot kits, also just bottled. This one might make an 89.

It's entirely possible I'm a bit too hash on my wines, but I have a hard time judging wines as "outstanding". In another year it's entirely possible the last two might make it over the line to 90.

I wrote a post describing my thoughts in more detail:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/wine-ratings-and-price/

Thank you so much for this scale for judging homemade wines. The best wines I've made from kits - RJS En Primer series and another RJS International - by my estimation fall in the 85-89 range.
My every day drinking wine, made from RJS Master Cellar kits and Argentina Ridge kits, both from Costco for around $100 (Cdn) for double (60 bottle kits). These kits would be a 75 or less if you follow instructions exactly. I tweak the wines per advice from the tweaking cheap wine kits thread - short water, add raisins, grape skins and oak, and then bulk store for a year. That brings most cheap wine kits that I tweak to an 83 or 84. I
'd say a well selected $15-$17 (cdn) bottle of commercial wine would be comparable. Most commercial $15 wines are worse.

that say you can make

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you so much for this scale for judging homemade wines. The best wines I've made from kits - RJS En Primer series and another RJS International - by my estimation fall in the 85-89 range.
My every day drinking wine, made from RJS Master Cellar kits and Argentina Ridge kits, both from Costco for around $100 (Cdn) for double (60 bottle kits). These kits would be a 75 or less if you follow instructions exactly. I tweak the wines per advice from the tweaking cheap wine kits thread - short water, add raisins, grape skins and oak, and then bulk store for a year. That brings most cheap wine kits that I tweak to an 83 or 84. I
'd say a well selected $15-$17 (cdn) bottle of commercial wine would be comparable. Most commercial $15 wines are worse.

that say you can make

This is great feedback. Thanks!

A suggestion for all members -- if there is a local wine tasting club, such as an American Wine Society chapter (which is only in the USA AFAIK), join it. A lot can be learned while discussing wines during tastings. As a result of AWS membership, I was a preliminary judge at the NY State Fair amateur competition ('89 & '90), and that was also a great experience.

 

[vinny]

This is great feedback. Thanks!

A suggestion for all members -- if there is a local wine tasting club, such as an American Wine Society chapter (which is only in the USA AFAIK), join it. A lot can be learned while discussing wines during tastings. As a result of AWS membership, I was a preliminary judge at the NY State Fair amateur competition ('89 & '90), and that was also a great experience.

I'm planning to nudge the LHBS owner to see if she can get a taste testing of local winemakers wines going. There is a fair amount of make on site kit makers, and I wonder if people more involved (or maybe even just the on site folk ) would be interested in sharing and comparing. She already did a food pairing event, so I think she could be encouraged to drive up events.

I think it would be fun as hell (for me), you guys are the ace up my sleeve.

There are also a lot of wineries in the BC Okanagan that I think will be fun to tour this summer to help spread my wings.

 

[AR324]

It's actually not a surprise, not from someone who's been making kits for 25+ years. The concentrate in the early kits was lower quality, and the reconstitution ratio was higher. I'll post a picture later of the 1999 Project Wine Cellar container, which for some off reason is still in my attic. It's tiny, and the regular WineArt kits were smaller. I wish I had saved those boxes -- I had 2 that I used for storing odds-n-ends, but junked them some years ago.

Regarding FWK, IMO you have it backwards. FWK came onto the scene and quickly caught up with the established vendors. In 2 years they have produced high quality kits at a better price than WE and RJS.


Tiny barrels are dangerous, as you can badly over-oak a wine in a matter of weeks, as the internal surface area to volume ratio is so high. If I purchased another barrel, it would be in the 23 to 30 liter range (6 to 8 US gallons), and I'd have to cycle at least 3 batches through it in the first year. As previously mentioned, wines aged for 2 years in a new oak barrel are typically in 225+ liter (59+ gallon) barrels.

I've experimented with different bulk aging schemes, and have done 2 years. Some of that was laziness, I just didn't get around to bottling, I just checked airlocks monthly.

My barrels are cycled annually -- I rack a barrel, clean it with Barrel OxyFresh (soaks 4 hours), bottle the old wine, and fill the barrel with new wine. My son and I work together well, efficiently, and it's still an 8 to 10 hour day to do both barrels. If I get grapes in October, barrel swapping will occur in November or early December.

I tried bottling on kit schedule, and the 2018 Corazon (WE LE kit) was a dismal failure, as there was wide bottle variance. I've re-adopted my original plan, which is a minimum of 4 months (1 month for fermentation/clearing, 3 months bulk aging). Most lighter wines will age 6 months, and heavier reds up to 12 months. This is not hard-n-fast, and real life stuff will affect the timeline.

Grapes are hard, as the fruit varies SOOOOO much from year to year. Kits are consistent. The grape wines I made in the late 80's were all pretty good, 83 to 89. I made Carmine in '88 and that one might have been a 90. The 2019 Merlot and Zinfandel fail to hit that mark due to high ABV unbalances them -- it was my first time with west coast grapes, and I didn't water back. Oddly enough, the 2019 second run Squeezins' wine (hard press from the pomace) was a 90. Very pronounced fruit, strong Merlot and Malbec character with nice support from the Zin. The 2020 Meritage might hit 90 in a year -- at this time it's 88 to 89, and it will take a bit for me to push it over that dividing line.

I wrote a post last spring about making a big red -- mostly a list of techniques that can contribute to success:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/making-a-big-red/

Although I helped others with barrels, my first barrel was in 2019. I put a 2nd run wine in it, as that was the only wine where I had 16+ gallons necessary to keep the barrel full for a year. That one was a great success, not hitting 90, but a solid 86. The Squeezins' mentioned above was the same batch, the final 8 gallons from the press -- some was used to top the barrel.

I put kits in the barrels in 2021 to keep them full, as my grape purchase was scotched -- the delivery date kept changing, and coincided with my son's wedding, and I had to make a hard choice. Ya know, I love my son, but do I love him that much?

This year we have Grenache and Tempranillo in the barrels. Next year? Dunno. We have a 5 year plan, e.g., don't make the same wine twice in 5 years. I'm leaning towards repeating this year's idea -- barrels will hold varietals, maybe Cabernet Sauvignon and Sangiovese, and we'll make a blend (Syrah, Merlot, Petit Verdot?) that will be carboy aged, and selectively blended into the 2 barrel wines the following fall. I make this stuff up as I go, and the plans may not be finalized until the moment I hit Send to email my order.

And not even then -- the 2020 Meritage and Meritage Plus blends were finalized during pressing. I had a Bordeaux Blend, Zinfandel, and 2 Merlot batches. At pressing I put the free run + light press from the Bordeaux Blend + both Merlot into one Brute, and everything remaining went into the other. Sometimes going with the gut works (and it doesn't hurt that I've done a LOT of research [which includes taste testing]) so the decision wasn't fully blind.

Just read your Making a Big Red Wine. It’s a very good resource. Thanks

 

[Cowpoly]

So I just ordered my first FWK (Cab Sav Tavola) with a skin pack and it’s set to arrive on Friday. I understand that with the skin pack you have to punch the bag of skins down a few times a day. With Christmas and the like coming up, how many days during primary can I get away with punching down? The instructions say to keep punching down until the SG is 1.01. In a 68-72F room, how long is this taking you all?

I would like to start the kit the day it shows up, but I plan to be away from home Dec 23-26th. I have multiple work trips afterwards as well, so I’m trying to time the most active part in the process to line up with my home time.

 

[vinny]

So I just ordered my first FWK (Cab Sav Tavola) with a skin pack and it’s set to arrive on Friday. I understand that with the skin pack you have to punch the bag of skins down a few times a day. With Christmas and the like coming up, how many days during primary can I get away with punching down? The instructions say to keep punching down until the SG is 1.01. In a 68-72F room, how long is this taking you all?

I would like to start the kit the day it shows up, but I plan to be away from home Dec 23-26th. I have multiple work trips afterwards as well, so I’m trying to time the most active part in the process to line up with my home time.

I just did my first kit with skins- Vineco. I treated it like a fruit bag in my country wines. The skins were in a thick and sticky syrup and heavy enough to stay submerged until fermentation began. It was a slow start and after a couple of days of stirring I sanitized my hands and rung out the bag. It was still quite thick and coated my hands well. I had the bag on a string and swirled it and dunked it and got liquid all through it, and of course yeast. this is when it really started floating, but the lid kept the bulk submerged. I stirred and pushed the skin bag under a few more times, but wasn't very aggressive with it after that. On the last day I wrung out wine, the contents were spent.

If the yeast gets in there they will do the work, just make sure you give it extra attention before leaving it unattended.

 

[Xlev]

How much was the shipping rate? Estimated delivery time? I live in Sweden, hence the interest.

I will let you know when it is sent from the US

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

I just did my first kit with skins- Vineco. I treated it like a fruit bag in my country wines. The skins were in a thick and sticky syrup and heavy enough to stay submerged until fermentation began. It was a slow start and after a couple of days of stirring I sanitized my hands and rung out the bag. It was still quite thick and coated my hands well. I had the bag on a string and swirled it and dunked it and got liquid all through it, and of course yeast. this is when it really started floating, but the lid kept the bulk submerged. I stirred and pushed the skin bag under a few more times, but wasn't very aggressive with it after that. On the last day I wrung out wine, the contents were spent.

If the yeast gets in there they will do the work, just make sure you give it extra attention before leaving it unattended.

Are you in WA? You mentioned the Okanagan and I live in Spokane is why I ask.

 

[vinny]

I am in Alberta

 

[jgmann67]

A quick follow up - my chardonnay and Northern Rhone kits showed up yesterday - stellar delivery times as always from Label Peelers. But, the interesting thing is this: both kits showed up in one cooler box. That's the first time that's ever happened. I'm not upset about that at all, just an observation.

I put the juice and the skins in the fridge because I won't have time to give them until this weekend. @Shurt1073 - four months seem a long time to wait to start those kits. Did you put your juice in the freezer?

 

[winemaker81]

quick follow up - my chardonnay and Northern Rhone kits showed up yesterday - stellar delivery times as always from Label Peelers. But, the interesting thing is this: both kits showed up in one cooler box. That's the first time that's ever happened. I'm not upset about that at all, just an observation.

I had 2 kits arrive in 1 box. Freaked me out, until I realized the box was larger.

 

[Shurt1073]

I put the juice and the skins in the fridge because I won't have time to give them until this weekend. @Shurt1073 - four months seem a long time to wait to start those kits. Did you put your juice in the freezer?

They are going into the refrigerator and not the freezer. I have been told 10 - 12 weeks is no big deal in the refrigerator.

 

[wineview]

Although I have never done this but Label Peelers told me up to a year in a refrigerator.