French Oak vs. Eastern European Oak

[Tin_Man]

Hello all,

I am curious to hear thoughts on French Oak barrels vs. Eastern European Oak (Hungarian) barrels. These two types of barrels are actually made from the same species of tree (Quercus petraea or Quercus robur). Is there any difference then?

 

[Jovimaple]

I don't have an answer to your question, but welcome to WMT!

 

[mainshipfred]

I think you will find the general consensus is there is a difference and it all depends on which forest they come from. I believe France has five main forests and Hungary has three but the same species is also grown in other Eastern European countries. They have different soils, elevations and climates (terroir) which play a part in flavor profiles. For cost reasons I stick with the Hungarian.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

I have both a Hungarian and French barrel that are both in the “break in” stage and only on their second wine. After leaving wines in both for four weeks, the French version was more pronounced, it will be interesting to see how the second batch from each turns out after 8 weeks. I would encourage you to read @winemaker81’s oak experiment logs as he had some great observations noted that may answer your questions

 

[winemaker81]

As @mainshipfred pointed out, there is a difference between French and Hungarian oak.

I am struggling with an answer, as I can tell you my taste, but that doesn't mean yours is the same. That said:

French oak produces a more sour taste than Hungarian, and in my winemaking I prefer Hungarian. Yet I'm a fan of Bordeaux and Rhone wines. Like Fred advises, go with the cheaper barrel.

The oak stix experiment that @She’sgonnakillme mentions is on my web site (see my sig). The link is listed on my home page.

 

[cmason1957]

Here is what can be found at morewinemaking.com:

French Oak Flavor Summary
All toast levels have a perceived aromatic sweetness and full mouthfeel.
French oak has a fruity, cinnamon/allspice character, along with custard/ crème brûlée, milk chocolate and campfire/roasted coffee notes*. (*Especially at higher toast levels.)
As the toast levels increased the fruity descriptor for the wine changed from fresh to jammy to cooked fruit/raisin in character.

American Oak Flavor Summary
The American oak had aromatic sweetness and a campfire/roasted coffee attribute present in all three toast levels, with Medium Plus and Heavy toast having the highest intensity.
American oak had cooked fruit more than a fresh or jammy quality.
American Oak imparted mouthfeel/fullness, especially in Medium Plus.

Hungarian Oak Flavor Summary
The Hungarian oak at Medium toast displayed a high perceived-vanillin content, with roasted coffee, bittersweet chocolate and black pepper characters.
Medium Plus and Heavy toast imparted mouthfeel fullness, with only a slight amount of campfire/roasted coffee. Heavy also had pronounced vanillin. At all toast levels, there were unique attributes such as leather and black pepper, not observed in other oak origins.

 

[Tin_Man]

As @mainshipfred pointed out, there is a difference between French and Hungarian oak.

I am struggling with an answer, as I can tell you my taste, but that doesn't mean yours is the same. That said:

French oak produces a more sour taste than Hungarian, and in my winemaking I prefer Hungarian. Yet I'm a fan of Bordeaux and Rhone wines. Like Fred advises, go with the cheaper barrel.

The oak stix experiment that @She’sgonnakillme mentions is on my web site (see my sig). The link is listed on my home page.

@winemaker81 I found your website, and the oak stix experiment, and totally loved it! I am impressed that you have recorded that much data over that much time. A true marvel.

 

[Rocky]

At our level of wine making, I believe the main difference between French Oak and Hungarian Oak barrels is that the French Oak costs more.

 

[Glidewaves]

In general, they use more Hungarian oak in Italy. When I make Italian varieties I use Hungarian either barrel or cubes.

 

[balatonwine]

Why are you not considering American Oak?

 

[winemaker81]

From what I read, pre-WWI, the French used Hungarian oak. The war cut supply lines so they switched to their native oak, and never switched back.

 

[Tin_Man]

Why are you not considering American Oak?

From my experience I believe American oak to be inferior for winemaking. It's a completely different species of tree (Quercus alba). It also grows faster, meaning it has looser grain. Loose grain is less porous and more fibrous meaning more tannin extraction. It can make the wines quite harsh in barrel.

French or Hungarian oak is usually tighter grain (slower growth). Tighter grain is more porous with less fibers. These pores better regulate oxygen exchange over time, tannin extraction is usually better too.

You can actually measure the grain on your barrels at the croze where the staves end.

Again, just my opinion, but there is some science behind it.

 

[balatonwine]

Again, just my opinion, but there is some science behind it.

Thank you for the reply.

Different oaks simply create different wines. If you like the types of wine they make or not is less science and more preference and market pressure.....

https://morewinemaking.com/articles/Comparing_oak_nationalities
If you do not like the wine one oak makes over another, that is fine. But then you still need to really consider what @mainshipfred said, since location even within a country will matter.

Side note: I live in Hungary, if you did not check.... so my choice of oak, if used, is based on locality... slow foodish concept, and supporting local economies..... If I lived in Texas, I would probably buy American. But that is just me. Which is the only reason really why I asked.

 

[winemanden]

Going by what I've read, American Oak barrels were used to give Spanish Rioja wines a taste of vanilla.

 

[Kitchen]

Why are you not considering American Oak?

The main issue with American oak is that it is not seasoned as long since it is predominantly used in Bourbon barrels that are looking for an intense in your face flavor. Most cooperages will only let their American staves season for 6 months. They are also not as interested in only using the highest quality staves. Wine barrels need to be tighter since wine has no sugar in it. Bourbon barrels do not need to be made to as high of a standard since the sugar in the bourbon will help plug any loose spots.

In contrast, cooperages that specialize in wine barrels let their staves season for at least 2 years, which allows for a softer flavor profile.

I have a sour cherry mead sitting in a new American oak barrel that had staves seasoning for three years and made to the same standards as a wine barrel. I thought for sure the favor would be intense, since that is the reputation American oak has. The cooper assured me otherwise. It's been 10 month so far and the flavor is still mild and progressing like an European wine barrel would.

With that said, American oak does have a very different flavor profile, think sweat coconut with hints of dill, eucalyptus, mint. There is still vanilla, but really none of the baking spices that European oak is known for.

 

[winemaker81]

The main issue with American oak is that it is not seasoned as long since it is predominantly used in Bourbon barrels that are looking for an intense in your face flavor. Most cooperages will only let their American staves season for 6 months. They are also not as interested in only using the highest quality staves. Wine barrels need to be tighter since wine has no sugar in it. Bourbon barrels do not need to be made to as high of a standard since the sugar in the bourbon will help plug any loose spots.

Where are you getting your information? I found several American cooperages for wine barrels, and all claimed 24 months of seasoning. For bourbon barrels, it varied from 6 months to 24 months. Wine barrels are toasted while bourbon barrels are apparently charred.

Bourbon has no sugar in it. Unlike blended whiskey's which often are colored with caramel, bourbon gets it's color and vanilla taste from the new oak.

 

[Jim Welch]

From my reading on various whiskeys, my understanding is that the "sugar" in Bourbon is from the sugar in the Oak barrel that gets leached out during aging, I believe the charring plays a role in how much sugar is available to be leached out iirc. Residual sugar in the whiskey wash gets trapped in the still pot, I don't think sugar can be distilled at the temp range alcohol is distilled except perhaps microscopic amounts perhaps, if sugar can be distilled at all.

 

[Siwash]

It's a completely different species of tree (Quercus alba).

That's actually not entirely accurate.. yes they are different, but both quercus are part of the white oak family.

 

[Tin_Man]

 

[balatonwine]

With that said, American oak does have a very different flavor profile, think sweat coconut with hints of dill, eucalyptus, mint. There is still vanilla, but really none of the baking spices that European oak is known for.

Thanks for such details. Appreciated. Which is basically what I said: The oak will create different wines. If you like that wine or not is a personal issue.

Rant: But again, still I wonder, why an American wine maker would not want to create an American wine? Rather than a European "like" wine. I understand the market pressure to make every wine taste like it came from France... but why should that be? Maybe time to move away from over powerful "influencers" in the industry (dare I name names?). Great things are being done with creative ideas in distilled beverages and beers, yet the wine makers still cling to trying to make their wine taste like some French winery. To my way of thinking, that is maybe a little bit silly. Of course I often operate outside the norm. But I have done well for myself over the years seeing around curves. Take that for what it is worth. Hope this helps.

Side note: Wine industry needs to change:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/07/dining/drinks/wine-millennials.html