Help with small vineyard planning

[ChuckD]

Once they start leafing out, the race is on. I don’t have a bench but I do stop now and then and admire the vines.

Now and then there is a surprise in the vines.View attachment 89216

The grow tubes will go on in a few days. Mainly so I don’t have to deal with the four legged marauding horde. I already chased three of them out of the vineyard this evening.

 

[VinesnBines]

Better get the tubes on. Momma deer says the new shoots are tasty.

 

[ChuckD]

Better get the tubes on. Momma deer says the new shoots are tasty.

Any vines that don’t get grow tubes will get a deer repellent spray daily until they get the grow tubes. In a year or two I’ll be installing a deer fence around the backyard/ garden/ vineyard area.

 

[TurkeyHollow]

Any thoughts on trellising? Being in cooler climate, are you double trunking?

 

[ChuckD]

Any thoughts on trellising? Being in cooler climate, are you double trunking?

I had just assumed I would use HWC because it’s recommended, but several folks here have me thinking about VSP.

I hadn’t thought about double trunking. It’s not that cold here (zone 5a) and I’m close enough to the Great Lakes coast that we seem to avoid the really brutal cold.

 

[VinesnBines]

I am trying double trunking to an extent. I have discovered that you can't have four cordons unless you have two fruiting wires. I'm rethinking because we don't have brutal winters either.

 

[GSMChris]

Congrats on getting them all in the ground!!!

 

[ChuckD]

I am trying double trunking to an extent. I have discovered that you can't have four cordons unless you have two fruiting wires. I'm rethinking because we don't have brutal winters either.

So if you have double trunks do you then prune to fewer buds per cane or spur? Keeping the same production per vine?

 

[VinesnBines]

So if you have double trunks do you then prune to fewer buds per cane or spur? Keeping the same production per vine?

I don't know; that's my problem. I haven't done enough research.

 

[TurkeyHollow]

It's kind of a PITA to train them to spur in the direction you want them but well worth it (from what I've read). I was told you can get double the fruit from TWC (if that's what is recommended). I have some that are MWC (VSP) but that variety called for it. I double-trunked everything living in 6b. I've lost a couple of cordons to winter damage and got impatient and just let a shoot grow off the main trunk in order to another cordon started. At the same time, I will let another shoot come up from the base to form the second trunk. Since that new cordon won't produce any fruit this year (or at least I won't let it), I'll see witch method produces the best result. Double-trunking affords you the ability to make the choice - if winter damage isn't an issue, you may be best served just concentrating on the one. Either way, good luck!

 

[TurkeyHollow]

So if you have double trunks do you then prune to fewer buds per cane or spur? Keeping the same production per vine?

I prune (2) buds per spur (spur spacing is about a fist) then the for winter pruning, prune off (1) shoot off the spur and leave (2) buds on the remaining shoot. Those will be my (2) buds for the following year's fruiting vines.

 

[VinesnBines]

It's kind of a PITA to train them to spur in the direction you want them but well worth it (from what I've read). I was told you can get double the fruit from TWC (if that's what is recommended). I have some that are MWC (VSP) but that variety called for it. I double-trunked everything living in 6b. I've lost a couple of cordons to winter damage and got impatient and just let a shoot grow off the main trunk in order to another cordon started. At the same time, I will let another shoot come up from the base to form the second trunk. Since that new cordon won't produce any fruit this year (or at least I won't let it), I'll see witch method produces the best result. Double-trunking affords you the ability to make the choice - if winter damage isn't an issue, you may be best served just concentrating on the one. Either way, good luck!

So you only have one cordon or arm per trunk? I'm probably going to cane prune; double pruning did not seem to work as intended and that was the main reason for spur pruning.

 

[TurkeyHollow]

So you only have one cordon or arm per trunk? I'm probably going to cane prune; double pruning did not seem to work as intended and that was the main reason for spur pruning.

Yes - one cordon per trunk. I'm no expert at this by any means. I've done quite a bit of research on my particular varieties and applied what I believed to be the best advice. I've also strayed on some vines to compare the results. One thing I've learned is that with all the varieties, terroirs, micro-climates, etc., there are too many variables to have one steadfast rule. Unfortunately for me, there aren't too many old vineyards in my area so the data is limited. On the other hand, grapes have been grown for centuries so there is data you can lean on for a starting point.

 

[VinesnBines]

Yes - one cordon per trunk. I'm no expert at this by any means. I've done quite a bit of research on my particular varieties and applied what I believed to be the best advice. I've also strayed on some vines to compare the results. One thing I've learned is that with all the varieties, terroirs, micro-climates, etc., there are too many variables to have one steadfast rule. Unfortunately for me, there aren't too many old vineyards in my area so the data is limited. On the other hand, grapes have been grown for centuries so there is data you can lean on for a starting point.

Yes, there are so many variables even in the same vineyard. I’m still getting the feel of my vineyard and my vines.

This year looks to be promising. Even the 2 year vines that survived a really dry 1st year look good. I didn’t irrigate and they barely got to the top of the grow tubes.

 

[ChuckD]

double pruning did not seem to work as intended and that was the main reason for spur pruning.

What is double pruning? Not a term I remember from my research on vine training methods.

ETA. So I searched here for it and it looks like you prune most of the way in winter but leave extra buds then prune again after the danger of frost has passed. Is this correct?

 

[VinesnBines]

What is double pruning? Not a term I remember from my research on vine training methods.

Double pruning is where you leave extra buds on the spur or cane. The theory is that the buds at the end of the spur break first and you cut those back to delay bud break. It is to mitigate late frost damage.

My buds broke first close to the cordon and later on the ends. That made double pruning impossible and useless. Studies showed that you can delay bud break by 10 to 14 days. They did not make the study in my vineyard.

 

[montanarick]

So if you have double trunks do you then prune to fewer buds per cane or spur? Keeping the same production per vine?

quick answer is NO.

 

[ChuckD]

quick answer is NO.

I guess I have lots of reading to do this winter. Single trunk? Double trunk? TWC? VSP? Cane? Spur? So many choices

 

[VinesnBines]

Trellis systems alone can occupy volumes; add Scott-Henry, Hudson umbrella, Kiffen, double lyre, MWC, and many more.

Seriously you should take some viticulture classes if any are available near you. Here is a link to webinars by Penn State and Cornell.

Here is a link to the Eastern Viticulture and Enology Forum Webinars from 2020/21 and 2021/22. Eastern Viticulture and Enology Forum | Cornell Fruit Resources: Grapes

The Spring Frost Mitigation and Rose' Wine Production were both good. I wasn't able to attend all the webinar's due to timing but there are several more I want to watch. Some are geared to commercial operations but I was always able to get a tidbit that was useful.

 

[ChuckD]

Trellis systems alone can occupy volumes; add Scott-Henry, Hudson umbrella, Kiffen, double lyre, MWC, and many more.

Seriously you should take some viticulture classes if any are available near you. Here is a link to webinars by Penn State and Cornell.

Thanks for the link. I’ll check some of these out. I’ll also check to see if UW Madison offers any classes or field days.