Is it worth it to make a second run wine?

[Rocky]

I am really enjoying this thread because I like hearing about others' experiences. I am having a little difficulty in following some of the posts because of my understanding of what "pomace" is. To me, pomace is the pressed skins of the grapes and all I ever used this for was compost. I have never used this in wine making. The only other use I have heard of for pomace is as a base in another process (which we do not discuss on this site).

 

[TurkeyHollow]

I followed an old recipe then tried to modify the ratios. Turns out the old timers had the optimum recipe for mediocrity (as it never got any better). I also saw a recipe for a 3rd run using half the additions (1 qt water, 1/2 lb. sugar, etc.) but since I can get real fruit, I just never saw the need to waste the time. At that point, it's just lightly colored sugar-wine.

 

[winemaker81]

I am really enjoying this thread because I like hearing about others' experiences. I am having a little difficulty in following some of the posts because of my understanding of what "pomace" is. To me, pomace is the pressed skins of the grapes and all I ever used this for was compost. I have never used this in wine making. The only other use I have heard of for pomace is as a base in another process (which we do not discuss on this site).

I admit I am using the term "pomace" more generically and somewhat incorrectly. Pomace is the remains of fruit after pressing, and applies to grapes, olives, and other pressed fruit.

"Second run wine" operates on the premise that there is value remaining in the pomace. I and others have demonstrated proof that this concept is true, but as the thread indicates, the individual conditions directly affect the quality of the result.

One person I knew BITD made third run wine ... which resembled alcoholic Kool-Aid, so there is a limit to how much effective re-use can be made.

 

[winemaker81]

I followed an old recipe then tried to modify the ratios. Turns out the old timers had the optimum recipe for mediocrity (as it never got any better). I also saw a recipe for a 3rd run using half the additions (1 qt water, 1/2 lb. sugar, etc.) but since I can get real fruit, I just never saw the need to waste the time. At that point, it's just lightly colored sugar-wine.

You raise a good point -- the intent of the winemaker produces a difference. Some of the guys I knew wanted to make something alcoholic to drink while the first run was aging. Others were making a lighter wine to drink in that same period.

If I re-use the pomace with water again, I'll probably go with a 4:1 ratio rather than 2:1. However, using the pomace to improve a kit or juice bucket makes a first run wine (full bodied), not a second run. YMMV

 

[TurkeyHollow]

You raise a good point -- the intent of the winemaker produces a difference. Some of the guys I knew wanted to make something alcoholic to drink while the first run was aging. Others were making a lighter wine to drink in that same period.

If I re-use the pomace with water again, I'll probably go with a 4:1 ratio rather than 2:1. However, using the pomace to improve a kit or juice bucket makes a first run wine (full bodied), not a second run. YMMV

You have to remember, we're standing on the shoulders of giants. All this has been tried and done before. I've seen very little on these forums that used new ideas for making wine. I may have seen it here first, then read about the same process somewhere else being done generations ago. Sure the technology for getting more accurate measurements and better hygiene has improved by leaps and bounds, but the principles are still the same. What I like best about these discussions is that it points me in the direction of a rabbit hole I would have normally overlooked. Also, the many contributors confirm my results. So thanks for that, everyone!

 

[David Violante]

I am really enjoying hearing other’s experiences as well~

@AFW this is what happens when you get a bunch of us together contemplating a topic…! Thank you for your question~

 

[AFW]

David I am enjoying the conversation as well.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I haven't made a second run wine but I did make a hard press wine one year. Typically, with a basket press the first press doesn't recover all the juice, even if you press quite robustly. For my 2021 pinot noir I pressed out 1/2T grapes, yielding a (60 gal) barrel plus several carboys of topping wine. We saved the pomace and re-pressed, yielding about 5 gal which was kept separate.

The 'hard press' wine was definitely inferior to the first press wine, though still quite drinkable. We use it mainly for cooking (beef bourgguignon, etc) though several glasses have been known to make their way into the cooks as well...

This year I made white and red pinot noir, and saved the pomace from 2 of the white wine press runs to add to the red pinot. Too early to tell, of course, but I think it's going to be a big, bold and rich style of pinot noir.

 

[winemaker81]

I haven't made a second run wine but I did make a hard press wine one year. Typically, with a basket press the first press doesn't recover all the juice, even if you press quite robustly. For my 2021 pinot noir I pressed out 1/2T grapes, yielding a (60 gal) barrel plus several carboys of topping wine. We saved the pomace and re-pressed, yielding about 5 gal which was kept separate.

The 'hard press' wine was definitely inferior to the first press wine, though still quite drinkable. We use it mainly for cooking (beef bourgguignon, etc) though several glasses have been known to make their way into the cooks as well...

This year I made white and red pinot noir, and saved the pomace from 2 of the white wine press runs to add to the red pinot. Too early to tell, of course, but I think it's going to be a big, bold and rich style of pinot noir.

Try using rice hulls in pressing. That really improves extraction.

We don't use hulls for the first run, but do for the second.

The extra skins in the PN should make a positive difference.

 

[Garagista]

Love those carboy carriers….

Thanks, those are mostly to eliminate the carboys from bumping and for storing empty. They are not strong enough to carry a full carboy.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092LGVVV6

 

[Garagista]

Love those carboy carriers….

Thanks(giving)!!

 

[Gilmango]

Happy Turkey Day to all the WMT Jive (and non-Jive) Turkeys (and Tofurkeys if there are any in this crowd)!

I'm also enjoying this thread. I am only 4 harvests into my making wine from grapes-I-pick journey and have always done a second wine. My biggest takeaways are this:

Don't press hard on the first wine, think free run or close to it, leave your press behind and if you have to press at all (to fill a second carboy which is a gallon short, for example) just press a pyrex measuring cup into your pomace. That cup will fill with liquid and it is easy to keep the solids out or to strain that liquid before it goes in the carboy.​

​

It will be better if you use a kit or pail wine rather than "sugar water with acid/tannin/yeast booster(s)."​

​

But if you use a kit be really careful with MLB/MLF! Many of us co-inoculate, adding MLB to our picked grape ferments earlier rather than later. There are great benefits to this (to my rookie mind) in terms of temperature and available nutrients. But if you then add a kit wine to make a 2nd wine you may get undesirable results. Basically kit wines are acid balanced and adding MLB (from your pomace) to a kit is a really bad idea. That's what prompted me to make this post. Some kits are more forgiving (FWK) but it is still a bad idea, even with a FWK you will wind up with a flabby wine.​

​

So either skip or delay the MLB addition if you are making a 2nd wine with a kit (vs. sugar water)! If you do it with a pail you should be fine, assuming the pail was not manipulated for acidity like kits.​

​

Skipping MLB altogether should be done more often in wines from grapes! My best wine so far was last year's Grenache. I had no MLB. I then made a great 2nd wine with a FWK Syrah. The acid on that wine is so amazing that you immediately want another sip, I think MLB kills that. Everyone compares malic acid (which gets neutered into lactic acid by MLB) to a granny smith apple, and honestly many wines want that granny smith acidity.​

 

[Rocky]

Thanks, those are mostly to eliminate the carboys from bumping and for storing empty. They are not strong enough to carry a full carboy.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092LGVVV6

Pfew, I am really glad that you noted this. When I saw them, my first thought was I hope they don't try lifting the carboy by those straps.

 

[Garagista]

Happy Turkey Day to all the WMT Jive (and non-Jive) Turkeys (and Tofurkeys if there are any in this crowd)!

I'm also enjoying this thread. I am only 4 harvests into my making wine from grapes-I-pick journey and have always done a second wine. My biggest takeaways are this:

Don't press hard on the first wine, think free run or close to it, leave your press behind and if you have to press at all (to fill a second carboy which is a gallon short, for example) just press a pyrex measuring cup into your pomace. That cup will fill with liquid and it is easy to keep the solids out or to strain that liquid before it goes in the carboy.​

​

It will be better if you use a kit or pail wine rather than "sugar water with acid/tannin/yeast booster(s)."​

​

But if you use a kit be really careful with MLB/MLF! Many of us co-inoculate, adding MLB to our picked grape ferments earlier rather than later. There are great benefits to this (to my rookie mind) in terms of temperature and available nutrients. But if you then add a kit wine to make a 2nd wine you may get undesirable results. Basically kit wines are acid balanced and adding MLB (from your pomace) to a kit is a really bad idea. That's what prompted me to make this post. Some kits are more forgiving (FWK) but it is still a bad idea, even with a FWK you will wind up with a flabby wine.​

​

So either skip or delay the MLB addition if you are making a 2nd wine with a kit (vs. sugar water)! If you do it with a pail you should be fine, assuming the pail was not manipulated for acidity like kits.​

​

Skipping MLB altogether should be done more often in wines from grapes! My best wine so far was last year's Grenache. I had no MLB. I then made a great 2nd wine with a FWK Syrah. The acid on that wine is so amazing that you immediately want another sip, I think MLB kills that. Everyone compares malic acid (which gets neutered into lactic acid by MLB) to a granny smith apple, and honestly many wines want that granny smith acidity.​

Interesting, thx.
Regarding your points on Malo Lactic fermentation, are you saying that the wine will be flabby because the kit wine has been acid balanced and MLF will alter that balance?

 

[Rice_Guy]

only 1/8 tsp?
At

1 tsp yeast energizer
5g Tartaric acid
1/8 tsp of chestnut tannin

I have more country fruit available than I can use, so have never needed a second wine, but will do a big red wine out of mulberry with 1/2 tsp of chestnut tannin. In the club it passes as a vinifera grape.

 

[TurkeyHollow]

only 1/8 tsp?
At

I have more country fruit available than I can use, so have never needed a second wine, but will do a big red wine out of mulberry with 1/2 tsp of chestnut tannin. In the club it passes as a vinifera grape.

The 2nd run was too out of balance with any more than 1/8 tsp. The tannin at higher concentration becomes more of a flavoring than seasoning. First run heavier wines are another story.

 

[Christopher Anderson]

Love this string. I have 3 FWK going at once. All with double skins. I had asked if I can add these to a cheap wine kit. But they were fermented first. Some said no, some yes. But I will try the fermented pomace.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Love this string. I have 3 FWK going at once. All with double skins. I had asked if I can add these to a cheap wine kit. But they were fermented first. Some said no, some yes. But I will try the fermented pomace.

Two twists on the question; can you do it? and will it accomplish a flavor change;
* The polyphenols / tannins are a limited compound, astringent primarily in the skin and bitter flavor primarily in the seeds. Basically once we have pulled polyphenols out, it is used up. We won’t know what is left unless we try it.
* Flavor degradation is a risk if the pumice is floating which allows aerobic organisms like molds to grow. On my part I would reduce the mold potential by having the pumice in a bag with several 1/2 inch stainless steel bolts to keep it submerged.

 

[Kev6]

After lurking on this thread for awhile I thought I would share my experience, hopefully entertaining.

My first attempt at a non kit wine was early in my wine making journey. I got a 6gal bucket fermenter full of Norton must crushed and destemed from a local winery. Being completely oblivious to the difference from a kit, I inoculated it and snapped on the lid and added the airlock. You know what happened next! Came home from work the next day to a house full of the wonderful smell of fermentation. Juice was spitting out of the airlock and the lid was moments away from releasing my must all over the basement. I was able to release the pressure without an explosion, punch down the cap and continue the ferment with much more frequent punch down. After 4-5 days I hand pressed using a colander and pan. The resulting yield was considerably less than I expected. Just over half of the 6gal carboy. (I was and somehow still am of the mindset that if I am going through all this that I want 30 bottles of wine at the end.) What to do? I had read about second run recipe in an old winemaking book so that's what I did. After 4 more days of fermentation I was able to top off the carboy and have an extra gallon for racking topoffs. Surprisingly the wine came out very good. Had several comments leaning towards the best Norton they had ever had. It has even aged well as 11 years later I opened one of the last bottles and I was very pleased with it.

 

[winemaker81]

Being completely oblivious to the difference from a kit, I inoculated it and snapped on the lid and added the airlock.

I read this and immediately thought, "Oh, GAWD NO! Mount Vesuvius!"

I'm happy it worked out for you!