Juice Bucket Tweaking Feedback Please

[the_rayway]

Hi Folks,
My Dad and I are going to buy twin fresh juice buckets in Cabernet Sauvignon. The are Tosca brand "100% premium quality certified and inspected 1st run wine juice" from California.

This is our first joint experimentation, and we want to see the difference between tweaks and no-tweaks. I'm pulling some of the steps from Joe's good wines gone bad in the Sangiovese kit.

Here is the process I am proposing:
Bucket #1
Primary:
Add 1.5 cups med toast french oak (I think my Dad would refuse to drink a wine that wasn't oaked)

Bucket #2
Primary:
Add a cab sauv grape pack,
1.5 cups med toast french oak, and
extra tannin (amount TBD)
Secondary:
I would like to do some oak cubes or spirals if I can find them
1 Lb of raisins

The buckets are pre-innoculated with yeast, so we won't have a choice in that area. Any advice would be great. They should end up being big, flavourful, dry reds (hopefully).

I've only done one other bucket, and it was a Mosto Italiano Riesling that ended up as bottle bombs - and it wasn't very good before that. The carbonation was an improvement.

Ray

 

[Pumpkinman]

Rayway,
Here are my recommendations:

• Cab Sav can take a lot of oak, so oaking was a good idea.
• Even though the buckets are pre -inoculated, I highly recommend using BM 4X4, or ICV D21 yeast, re-hydrate with GoFerm, and add some of the must when it starts to show activity (foam up), the yeast will multiply, when you pitch it, it will become the dominant yeast, it will bring out the characteristics that you would want in a Cab Sav, you will be surprised how different the wine will be from a wine left to ferment on a EC-1118 yeast.
• I would add Tannins to get that great astringency that we all love in a cab, I prefer tannin riche.
• I would highly recommend getting the "allgrape" grape packs instead of raisins, this is a Canadian product put out by Mosti Mondiale, fresh grape pulp, skins and juice or get a lug of grapes and have it crushed and destemmed, use 5 -10 lbs per bucket (you'll need a bigger fermenting bucket), if I were making wine with my father, I'd want the experience to be the best it can be.
• If you use the fresh grapes, you might not need the tannin.
• I highly recommend putting it through Malolactic Fermentation, I used VP41 on my Cab Sav, and I am beyond pleased, no big secrets with MLF, I rehydrated it, pitched it, 3 months later, MLF was complete.
• Remember, this wine will need to be aged a while, a year at the least, during this time, you will rack it off the lees every month or so, you will need to be diligent about the SO2 levels.

I'll probably read this again later and realize that I missed something here or there, I'm sure others will give you their opinions as well.
Keep us posted!

 

[RCGoodin]

Rayway,

Here are my recommendations:

• I highly recommend using BM 4X4, or ICV D21 yeast, re-hydrate with GoFerm, and add some of the must when it starts to show activity (foam up), the yeast will multiply, when you pitch it, it will become the dominant yeast, it will bring out the characteristics that you would want in a Cab Sav, you will be surprised how different the wine will be from a wine left to ferment on a EC-1118 yeast.
• I would add Tannins to get that great astringency that we all love in a cab, I prefer tannin riche.
• I would highly recommend getting the "allgrape" grape packs instead of raisins, this is a Canadian product put out by Mosti Mondiale, fresh grape pulp, skins and juice or get a lug of grapes and have it crushed and destemmed, use 5 -10 lbs per bucket (you'll need a bigger fermenting bucket), if I were making wine with my father, I'd want the experience to be the best it can be.

Would you recommend this for all juice/concentrate kits like the ones from Amazon?

 

[Pumpkinman]

To be honest, I haven't made enough kits to make recommendations on tweaking them, I think that Joeswine would be the man to answer this question.

 

[Rocky]

Rayway, I am going to go out on a limb here and bet that bucket #2 will be a better wine.

 

[the_rayway]

Thanks Pumpkinman and Rocky - great feedback! This is just what I was looking for.

I picked up a D21 today thinking that it would be a better yeast, so we're on par there. I've never done MLF though, and I'm not sure where I can get the bacteria here in the 'Peg. I'll look into it.

You don't think I should do a full grape pack (the one you spoke about is the one I was thinking about), and then raisins in the secondary? I'll taste test along the way to see about the tannins.

Rocky - I totally know that the second bucket will be better; my Dad only gets the kits from Costco and they have never been to my tastes. A bit thin and harsh for me. He likes drinking them, but LOVES a really fat cab sauv from the LC.

I'm trying to show him that you can make a really fantastic wine at home. Mostly because of you all and the fantastic information on this site!

Thanks again, and I'm open to more suggestions from any who have to share.
Ray

 

[RCGoodin]

Thanks Pumpkinman and Rocky - great feedback! This is just what I was looking for.

I picked up a D21 today thinking that it would be a better yeast, so we're on par there. I've never done MLF though, and I'm not sure where I can get the bacteria here in the 'Peg. I'll look into it.

You don't think I should do a full grape pack (the one you spoke about is the one I was thinking about), and then raisins in the secondary? I'll taste test along the way to see about the tannins.

Rocky - I totally know that the second bucket will be better; my Dad only gets the kits from Costco and they have never been to my tastes. A bit thin and harsh for me. He likes drinking them, but LOVES a really fat cab sauv from the LC.

I'm trying to show him that you can make a really fantastic wine at home. Mostly because of you all and the fantastic information on this site!

Thanks again, and I'm open to more suggestions from any who have to share.
Ray

Check with Joeswine (another member here) and have him give your father advice on how to take that Costco wine and make it sing like a high end kit. He can do it.....................

 

[the_rayway]

Hey Folks,
So there's been a slight change in plans as my brother-in-law joined the wine making experiment. It's become more of a 'lets have a fun project we can do together and drink together' kind of thing No complaints here! My B-I-L is a very enthusiastic/ knowledgeable wine drinker, and we want all three of these buckets to end up amazing.

We have ordered two 'Gold Medal Series' buckets - an Amarone and a Malbec, then one 'Silver Medal Series' Merlot. The Amarone and Malbec will come with a varietal grape pack to match. I've purchased a CabSauv grape pack for the Merlot (same one Pumpkinman and I were discussing). We'll do up the three buckets together and split the results.

I picked up RC212, and D21 yeasts - anyone have suggestions which would go best with which grape? I was thinking RC212 with the Merlot, but advice is appreciated.

Here is the newly-discussed plan
All three buckets:
- Re-pitch of RC212 or D21
- Grape packs
- 1.5 Cups med toast french oak

Amarone - Dad wants to add
-Fresh blackberries to secondary, he's not sure of the quantity yet
-Raisins for the 'true Amarone' type deal (primary of secondary?), I also suggested the possibility of dried blueberries or currants
-Tannins - TBD once we taste what we are working with.

Malbec - B-I-L wants to add
-More oak in secondary (suggestions on quantity?)
-Extra tannins
-He wants to do this as 'naturally' as possible - no chemicals if we can help it.

Merlot - My deal
-More oak in secondary (suggestions please)
-Possible MLF - I will need to get a chromatography test kit for this
-I think I will leave out the extra tannins on this one - I'll likely get plenty from the CabSauv grape pack
-Tossing around the idea of using vanilla bean in the secondary as well to bring out the vanilla flavours. (Think Meiomi Pinot Noir wine)

So this is what we're thinking. I'll be doing some more investigation on the MLF, where I can get it, and what strains are best for a Merlot (anyone?). I think this is going to be a really good time for the three of us. And we should each go home with 10 bottles of each type to put in our cellars. I'm excited to start on the labels for these too.

Again, feedback is appreciated!

 

[the_rayway]

Ok, the juice is in!

We did the primary additives as above, plus bentonite in each bucket.
S.g.'s were all around 1.070, as they had already started fermenting (had a little wine fountain in the trunk of the car on the way home).

Here's the weird thing though - the T.A. came out at .20% on all three. Does that not seem extremely low? 15cc wine, 3-4 drops indicator solution, then put the Hydroxide in 1 cc at a time, swirl in between - correct? What would make these have such low acidity? If I read my little booklet correctly, that means I need to add 2.6 oz of acid blend to each bucket to reach the .60% for red wines.

Anyone?

 

[Rocky]

Rayway, I like your plan. One suggestion that I would make is to add the blackberries (about 2 quarts) to the primary in the Amarone and I would add the raisins in secondary. This should give you a nice berry background taste and the raisins will make it a more authentic Amarone. Secondly, I would add the dried blueberries and currants to the Merlot in secondary. Both are characteristic of Merlot and will give it another level of flavor. Good luck. Sounds like a great family project with "liquid" dividends in the end.

 

[the_rayway]

Excellent advice Rocky! I'll let me Dad know what the experts advise.

I hadn't thought of doing the currants/blueberries in the merlot, but now that you mention it - it sounds yummy.

These projects with my Dad are becoming increasingly important, and harder to do as his health took a rapid nosedive a little while back (he's not even 60). We're hoping he will pull out of this, but he is on a poison weekly that while it makes him feel better - also makes him feel worse. He'll be on it for the rest of his life, so we need to make every minute count!

 

[shoebiedoo]

I have found that 3oz of french oak beans will work for the Malbec

 

[Kraffty]

I'm sorry to hear about your father, I lost mine about 2-1/2 months ago. Do make every minute count, hope for the best, prepare for the worst and enjoy every second you can - even the sad and tough parts are memories you'll be so glad you have years from now.
Sounds like a great "family project" - I think I'll see if I can talk my Mom into something similar this weekend.
Best wishes you your father
Mike

 

[the_rayway]

I'm so sorry for your family's loss, Mike; and I hope you do start a project with your Mom! My husband started taking my Mom out on 'dates' a few years ago (they both like the same things, while my Dad and I have the same preferences for food, drink, and entertainment) and they enjoy their time together so much. My Mom is the introvert in a family of extreme extroverts, so having Bry take her out once in awhile makes her so happy!

I racked all three buckets today - they're already down to 1.002 only after 4-5 days. I put in the pectic enzyme and the raisins into the Amarone.

When people talk about how different fresh juice is from kits, I had no idea. This stuff tastes so green/sour - yikes! I feel like after a couple years of ageing, some oak layering, maybe time in the barrel I plan on getting - maybe, MAYBE it will be really really good. If I don't screw it up before then

I like this idea of long term projects, between these and my meads I'll be drinking like a queen a few years from now. Then add in the quick-drinking kits and - Bingo! Life is good. It'll also be something the three of us can yammer about, drink wine and argue about, and just plain old have some fun with.

 

[shoebiedoo]

I would double check with Regina before you attempt the malolactic fermentation. I'm pretty sure they add lylosyme to all thier buckets with will make that impossible. A buddy of mine called on that a couple years ago and that's what they told him.

 

[the_rayway]

Ok - who's Regina? I've got Tosca buckets, is Regina the distributor?

 

[shoebiedoo]

Oops. Got my threads mixed up once you go to page 2 you can easily get confused... At least at my age. But, if one juice buckets supplier is adding it I'm sure there are others.