WineXpert Just ordered a bunch of kits - what can I do to tweak these kits? help!

[vinny]

I am late to the party.

Changing yeast makes a HUGE difference in the lower end kits. I was finding the WE Reserve kits had a 'brand' taste. A similarity that stretched across each varietal, but changing up the yeast really brought a lot of life to them.

This is a fun way to help you decide which ones you want to try with each varietal.

https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wyeastpair.pdf
EC-1118 Has low nutrient requirements. RC-212 on the higher end of the scale. It wouldn't hurt to add some nutrient on day 2-3 of fermentation just to make sure they have everything they need as fermentation progresses.

 

[Brad Simmons]

one supplier says 1 tsp per gallon of wine - one says 1/2 tsp per 5 gallons.

What's a guy to do?

 

[Brad Simmons]

BTW, I am using: FERMOPRO™ YEAST NUTRIENT. is this even the correct one to use?

 

[vinny]

BTW, i am using: FERMOPRO™ YEAST NUTRIENT. is this even the correct one to use?

I have never used Fermopro, but the site I found it on said 2-3 grams per 5 gallons.

There are so many options for nutrient. I happened to have a couple bricks of bread yeast that are old enough that they proof really slow. Yeast is cannibalistic so I boil it to kill the bread yeast and add the slurry as nutrient. This is similar to using Fermaid O which is dead yeast hulls. Others use DAP, but as this is not a natural source of nitrogen it can impart too much nutrient at the wrong stages of yeast reproduction and over stimulate. I can't find what Fermopro contains, I am sure it is fine. All yeast have the same eating habits, but being mainly for beer hopefully someone can share some insight.

 

[Jeriatric]

DAP is a direct source of nitrogen that yeast can metabolise, it works well but changes the metabolism. Think of it as yeast junk food, it gets the job done and it is used extensively in wineries especially for mid - lower end wines as it is inexpensive. The premium fruit usually gets the yeast derived nutrients, these contain minerals and vitamins that are used by yeast in reproduction phase to create healthier generations of yeasts. The risk of adding too much nutrients is generally towards the end of fermentation, follow the addition rates and should be fine. The danger is that the left of over nitrogen is a source of food for spoilage yeast and bacteria. There are strains of spoilage microbes that hangout until active fermentation is finished and metabolise sugars/acids that are left and can produce off flavours.

For wine additions you can work off ppm (parts per million) and there are calculators online that can help you make the correct additions. As the volume for home winemaking are so small, a small variation can be quite a large dose.

If you are looking to take wines through MLF and if you have access to ph meter and are able to find out the amount of malic acid in the must. You can preempt the drop in pH and TA by acidifying with tartaric acid. You can also acidify after MLF if you find wines are flabby. However, earlier additions integrate with the wine better than adding later. Depending on the addition amount, the acid can be quite pokey.

The use of MLF is usually for 2 reasons, for reducing the acidity and for stabilising the wines. In wine kits the potassium sorbate and PMS are used to inhibit growth of potential yeast and bacteria so MLF is not required for stability. Potassium sorbate is not common used in commercial wineries (at least to my knowledge) as they have the ability to sterile filter wines and reach microbial stability in the finished product.

RC212 is the goto yeast for a lot of commercial Pinot Noir in Australia.
EC -1118 is mostly used for sparkling wine ferments or for method traditional secondary ferment. As it can ferment in very low pH ranges and low temperatures. It is fairly neutral and you can keep it around to restart stuck ferments.

 

[winemaker81]

BTW, i am using: FERMOPRO™ YEAST NUTRIENT. is this even the correct one to use?

Fermopro is a beer yeast nutrient, not a wine yeast nutrient.

 

[Jim Welch]

You can use the Fermpro, the wine yeast won't know its a "beer yeast" nutrient nor will they care.
Here are the ingredients: Diammonium phosphate, yeast hulls, autolysates of yeast, inert filter aid, thiamine hydrochloride
(vitamin B1).
It is a DAP based nutrient which isn't optimum (not even for beer! IMO) but will definitely be better than no nutrients. Yeast need oxygen early on too for optimum health.

It is marketed to brewers. Not surprised since it is made by a Swedish brewing yeast company and so the instructions are geared towards the nutrient demands in wort. But you should be able to adjust for that , if adjustment is needed at all, or follow your nose.

With that said I'd have both Go-Ferm and Fermaid O on hand next time you do this...

 

[Brad Simmons]

Jim, this is EXCELLENT news! Now, rookie Q here: you also mention, adjusting.

Are you meaning - the FermoPro says 15g-30g per 26 gallons (100L) - so since ber is like 6% and wine is like 12%, I double the dose?
Or am I reading too much into this - or over thinking it?
I other words, the two small pouches of Yeast nutrient I got from LDCarlson one is little white balls and says 1 tsp per gallon (2T per 6 gal batch)
and the other is Yeast nutrient or energizer I think - that looks like brewers yeast you eat with some salt-flaky looking things in there --- that says 1/2 tsp per gallon (1T per kit) I think - its one or the other.
Am I just supposed to use that doseage? or will it matter?

Made the kits on Sunday - a little over 48 hrs:

The 2 Malbecs are rolling and the SG is going down.
The 3 Gewurtz are rolling and the SG is going down.
The Adelaide Hills Sauv Blanc are no longer excited - the OG was 1090, and the SG is not 1070± and the yeast is not gregarious.

How much FermoPro Nutrient should I use in each kit? (the beer to wine adjutment?)
also, should I hit the kits that are still active (potentially preempting a stall in a few more days)?

Thank you SO much in advance!!!! <3

 

[winemaker81]

You can use the Fermpro, the wine yeast won't know its a "beer yeast" nutrient nor will they care.

Wine and beer yeast are different -- my concern is that the nutrient for one is not optimal for the other. I agree it should work, but it's worth checking.

 

[Jim Welch]

Wine and beer yeast are different -- my concern is that the nutrient for one is not optimal for the other. I agree it should work, but it's worth checking.

They are different "strains" of the exact same species, i.e. Saccharomyces cerevisiae. While these yeast are from different groups and are in fact genetically distinct, they have identical nutrient demands.
Just as two humans are both **** sapiens and genetically distinct from each other, they both have practically identical nutritional needs.
Barley provides plenty of nutrition for yeast and for brewing most homebrewed beers the addition of yeast nutrient is not really needed. The only beers I used it for were 8% and above ABV beers like Dubbels, Tripels, Quads, Russian Imperial Stout, etc. I used Fermaid K when I made these.
Any beer from 4%-8% ABV will ferment dry with no problem with the proper pitch with zero additional yeast nutrient beyond what is naturally in the wort.

 

[winemaker81]

They are different "strains" of the exact same species, i.e. Saccharomyces cerevisiae. While these yeast are from different groups and are in fact genetically distinct, they have identical nutrient demands.

Wine yeast have widely varying nutrient needs, e.g., EC-1118 is low nutrient while RC-212 is high nutrient.

While it appears the type of nutrient is the same across the species, dosage varies a lot. From this discussion and from what I've read, my concern has changed to getting the dosage correct, as beer yeast needs less, in part due to the lower ABV. Following package directions for beer may result in low nutrient.

This one doesn't go into enough detail for my likes, but it is interesting:

https://www.sanctuarybrewco.com/unv...n-wine-yeast-nutrient-and-beer-yeast-nutrient

 

[Jim Welch]

... instructions are geared towards the nutrient demands in wort. But you should be able to adjust for that , if adjustment is needed at all, or follow your nose.

From this discussion and from what I've read, my concern has changed to getting the dosage correct, as beer yeast needs less, in part due to the lower ABV. Following package directions for beer may result in low nutrient.

Yup, that was mine too!

 

[Brad Simmons]

From another forum....

"I emailed Wyeast with that question. They answered: "It is the same product with the same usage instructions for either wine or beer."

I did the same thing a few months ago. I ordered wine yeast nutrient instead of beer nutrient. The directions on the wine yeast called for 1 tsp per gal. So I added 5 tsp to the first batch. It took my pale ale down to 1.003. The last few batches I have used 1 tsp per 5 gal. They all finished in the 1.008 -1.012 range. Even on a big quad. I would still use it but limit it to 1/2 - 1 tsp. From the research I did at the time, I don't think they are the same."

Question is - how much do I use guessing for 6 gal of Sauv Blanc wine?

 

[Brad Simmons]

and BOY, WOW - do I appreciate this doctorate-level stuff. TOTALLY not had any conversations at this level for wine.

 

[winemaker81]

Question is - how much do I use guessing for 6 gal of Sauv Blanc wine?

We're talking about a kit, right? They normally come with EC-1118, so if the yeast you're using is low nutrient requirements, nutrient is not required. If you want to add it, do at most a half dose. Excess nutrient supposedly encourages bad things to grow, although I have not encountered it. This may be because it's not as prevalent as literature indicates OR because I've been lucky. Having encountered H2S twice in the last couple of years, I find it safer to assume I've been lucky and be cautious.

OTOH, if you're jumping from low nutrient (EC-1118) to high nutrient (RC-212) requirements, I'd add a full dose.

and BOY, WOW - do I appreciate this doctorate-level stuff. TOTALLY not had any conversations at this level for wine.

I think of our more experienced folks as NCOs (non-commissioned officers), being the ones that do the real work. PhD's are theoretical (officers) who don't do real work. You're getting advice from the folks in the trenches!



Seriously, there's not a lot of grape/wine research geared towards home winemakers. The discussions you're reading are not cutting edge in the industry, but they are cutting edge for home winemakers. I learn something new every week.

 

[Brad Simmons]

NCO @Jim Welch and NCO @winemarker81 - thank you sincerely for this.

I have also reached out to a close friend - he has a PhD in Plant Pathology - and has a Yeast company - and a Distillery he just sold for a Price's Ransom. We shall see what he think of this as well.

I think from all what I have read is - I put the FermoPro beer yeat nutrient in the wine - at the 2x ratio?

from beer to wine ABV? ad see how it goes? Is this what you would do?

I am so green - I will do whatever anyone much smarter than me tells me to do. :-D

 

[Brad Simmons]

this is what I have: Apex Cultures FermoPro is a premium nutrient formulated to optimize fermentation. Apex Cultures FermoPro nutrient supplies yeast with essential elements needed to brew complex and superior beers. For homebrew use: 2-3g per 5 gallons.

here's the pic:

here's the SPEC sheet:

FERMOPRO™ YEAST NUTRIENT SPEC SHEET DESCRIPTION Apex Cultures™ FermoPro™ is a premium nutrient formulated to optimize fermentation. Apex Cultures™ FermoPro™ Nutrient supplies yeast with essential elements needed to brew complex and superior beers. It also supplies wort with beneficial vitamins and microelements, further enhancing cell viability and producing a strong fermentation.

COMPOSITION & TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS Diammonium phosphate, yeast hulls, autolysates of yeast, inert filter aid, thiamine hydrochloride (vitamin B1).

DOSAGE FermoPro™ is used in the propagation phase (starter), in primary or during fermentation at 10 to 15 g/100 liters. APPLICATION Hydrate in sterile water (1:10) or add directly at the beginning of fermentation. STORAGE AND PACKAGING Store in a cool dry place, away from direct sunlight and heat

 

[winemaker81]

I think from all what I have read is - I put the FermoPro beer yeat nutrient in the wine - at the 2x ratio?

That seems to be good thinking.

I am so green - I will do whatever anyone much smarter than me tells me to do.

Nope, no one is necessarily smarter than you. A lot of us are more experienced, but none of us is infallible.

I say this frequently -- when listening to advice, consider "why" someone does something. That is far more important than "what" or "how". When you consider why I do something in my situation, it will help you decide if it's what you should do in your situation.

 

[vinny]

I just want to jump back in, seeing as I feel I pushed the thread in this direction.

I think the decision to double the beer yeast is a safe bet. The beauty of this forum... You were given a ton of input and steered to make a good choice.

NOW! I have asked quite a few questions on this topic and have received a lot of good feedback. I want to point out that LONGTIME winemakers here have changed out EC-1118 for other strains with no issue. I am going to assume that although EC-1118 is included and it has low nutrient requirements, these kits are designed to succeed, so there will be more nutrient than just the absolute basics required. It is why they use 1118, the going joke here is it will ferment a rock! It is the best chance for a successful ferment and failing kits don't sell.

Changing yeast can allow you to make a wine with more character. BUT.. In my humble opinion... Adding more nutrient is just a CYA.

It was already mentioned above, but the wise choice is to find some Fermaid-O in your travels or your preferred WINE nutrient and next round it will be a clear and easy addition.

We can make wine as simple or as complicated as we choose, and my input on this was to save future complications. I hope this comment brings back the simplicity of my goal.

We're not trying to make you overthink.. Just offer the best chance of success!

 

[Venatorscribe]

Wine and beer yeast are different -- my concern is that the nutrient for one is not optimal for the other. I agree it should work, but it's worth checking.

A number of the available beer yeasts will 'fall over' at around 10% abv. And depending upon the yeast they can impart a slight barn yard taste. Which is great for a beer but not so flash for a delicate white grape or fruit wine.