Other Kit Wine Expectations

[jsiddall]

I have a couple kits going now. WE Vintners Reserve Cab & Australian Petit Verdot w/skins... Both bulk aging. I'm new to wine making. I've done tons of reading... Must say I'm rather disheartened to hear my wine will most likely be an $8 bottle and at best, not much better... How does a home winemaker produce a good if not excellent, complex wine....???

IIRC the PV is a Selection series wine and as such it may compare to $12-$15 bottles.

To get significantly beyond that price range it seems you need to start with a frozen juice bucket or even with grapes.

 

[Boatboy24]

There are three things you can do to a kit (IMHO), that can make it a $10-15 bottle. I have one or two that I'd be OK spending $15-20 on. They are:

1) Oak. While some are OK, even kits that include oak are a little light. Adding oak during bulk aging helps. Cubes can last up to 6 weeks - if you're following kit directions and only putting them in for clearing, you might be cheating yourself.

2) Tannins. Lots of ways to do this, so I won't go into detail. But adding some tannin 3-4 weeks prior to bottling helps. I'm starting to experiment with adding them in primary or secondary now.

3) Barrel time. The microoxidation and concentration that happens in a barrel pays big dividends. At about $200 delivered, a 23 liter barrel isn't a small investment. But over time, that $200 is ammortized over hundreds of bottles.

 

[tonyt]

I have a couple kits going now. WE Vintners Reserve Cab & Australian Petit Verdot w/skins... Both bulk aging. I'm new to wine making. I've done tons of reading... Must say I'm rather disheartened to hear my wine will most likely be an $8 bottle and at best, not much better... How does a home winemaker produce a good if not excellent, complex wine....???

Boatboy24 said it best.

 

[heatherd]

Wow, this is turning into an entertaining thread in the fact that mezza Luna red came up. So simonz wants it for an early drinker, jsiddall has 30 bottles that won't be drunk. Ha! I was in both your shoes 22 months ago. I bought MLR because EVERYONE on the merchant's site praised it and said how it changed their lives and would bring world peace. Oh man! Three months later I was wondering what kind of bitter swill these people drank before! My MLR had such an odd taste with a very acidic twang to it. I forced myself to drink it while my other wines aged. Fast forward 22 months and I grabbed an unlabeled bottle from my rack and assumed it was a Carmenere. Wow I was surprised at the evolution this wine had completed! The acidity was gone. The off flavors were gone. What was left was a pretty decent Italian wine. Still not close to a premium kit, but so much better than before!! I'd give it an 87. So, long store short-ish it may be touted as an "early drinker", but you would be remiss by not aging it as you would a premium kit. Jsiddall, toss some in a corner for a few years, you may be impressed.

I made the mezza luna white for an early drinker. It was a pain to degass, and never fully did so, and so I won't drink it and certainly won't give any bottles away. My hubby was initially very determined to drink the stuff (with lots of aeration) but even he came to the realization that it was swill. It's been a year, I'll try another bottle - your post gives me some hope it might not be 100% gross now. I was starting to give it the hairy eyeball every time I buy another rack or more bottles, as it is taking up space and sitting in bottles I could otherwise be using....

I think what's important to consider is that there are things TRULY designed to be early drinkers like dragon's blood, skeeter pee, island mist, orchard breezin, summer breeze, ciders, beer, etc. Trying to make most wines into an early drinker may be short-changing that wine.

Heather

 

[heatherd]

I have a couple kits going now. WE Vintners Reserve Cab & Australian Petit Verdot w/skins... Both bulk aging. I'm new to wine making. I've done tons of reading... Must say I'm rather disheartened to hear my wine will most likely be an $8 bottle and at best, not much better... How does a home winemaker produce a good if not excellent, complex wine....???

I would say your kits with skins and oak, given some aging time, will certainly compare to $15-20 wine. You can do a taste test when yours are done and decide.

To Boatboy24's point, tannins, age, and oak will help immensely.

I have started adding a few things to my kits:
-Toasted oak powder in primary
-Fermentation tannins
-Cellaring tannins
-Finishing tannins
-Oak spirals or chips while bulk-aging in carboys

I have posted this link before, but the Scott labs website has a wealth of clear information on tannins they produce, what they all do, etc. I am still experimenting with which ones and how much. So far, I like the Tannin Riche but am also trying the UvaTan. They add a lot of complexity to a wine, whether red or white. www.scottlab.com Again, they're selling tannins, so tend to discount time and oak as being effective.

I'd like to split some batches and try different tannins on each to isolate the results, but haven't gotten around to it. I know that their addition makes the wine much better, and they aren't terribly expensive. However, my LHBS only had the big bottle of "TANNIN," without any explanation of what kind it is, so I had to mail order.

The only thing I have not used is liquid oak - primarily because it reminds me of Liquid Smoke, which strikes me a weird.

Heather

 

[Brian55]

I have a couple kits going now. WE Vintners Reserve Cab & Australian Petit Verdot w/skins... Both bulk aging. I'm new to wine making. I've done tons of reading... Must say I'm rather disheartened to hear my wine will most likely be an $8 bottle and at best, not much better... How does a home winemaker produce a good if not excellent, complex wine....???

IIRC the PV is a Selection series wine and as such it may compare to $12-$15 bottles.

To get significantly beyond that price range it seems you need to start with a frozen juice bucket or even with grapes.

Most of the premium kits, usually with skins, will compare in the $12 - $15 range. This is quite the value when you consider those kits produce wines in that range, yet they typically cost less than $5 per bottle to make.

If your aim is good wine, premium kits with a fair amount of aging will have you covered. If your aim is excellent, complex wine, you're going to have to put forth quite a bit more effort and research into winemaking and delve into frozen juice or grapes as jsiddall has suggested. If it were easy, everyone would do it.

 

[ColemanM]

There are great answers in all the above posts. Cellaring tannins and toasted oak in fermenter are both very important to mouth feel. Which I believe most kits lack. I decided, because I am soooo critical of the wines I have made so far, that I would start with frozen must from winegrapesdirect dot com. The good part about frozen grapes is the left over grape skins after pressing. I tossed in my pressed Merlot skins into my WE PV that I now call Petite Verlo. I got 3 1/2 gallons of fresh* grape wine and 6 gallons of ridiculously AMAZING PV. The PV at 3 months is a 15-20$ bottle. But this is the more expensive way of doing it. I'm looking at $7.33 cost per merlot and PV bottle.

 

[scram]

I appreciate all of the input. As I said, I've got two kits bulk aging. I did toss in a medium american oak spiral into each for bulk aging. I have some tannins I suppose I should add also... I guess add some tannins, let sit for a few weeks, taste n see??

I checked out the wine grapes direct web site.... Going to have to give that a go. Thanks...

 

[ryakar]

Not to sound stupid after reading to replies here, but if one does yet own a barrel for aging purposes, is it better to age in bulk still or at that point bottled? I have enough equipment that I am going to run a few different batches at least two premium kits and one more to drink as I wait. I got a great deal on a Kenridge Showcase cab and deciding on other premium kit choice.

 

[sour_grapes]

Not to sound stupid after reading to replies here, but if one does yet own a barrel for aging purposes, is it better to age in bulk still or at that point bottled?

Sorry, I am not clear on the question. What are you asking, exactly?

 

[ryakar]

Sorry, I am not clear on the question. What are you asking, exactly?

UGHHHH, proof read it and all, sorry for the mix up. If one does not yet own a barrel for aging, are you better off aging it in bulk in the carboy or in the bottles? In talking to people I have been given different opinions and am curious as to what people here think?

 

[Boatboy24]

UGHHHH, proof read it and all, sorry for the mix up. If one does not yet own a barrel for aging, are you better off aging it in bulk in the carboy or in the bottles? In talking to people I have been given different opinions and am curious as to what people here think?

It depends on your situation, really. Bulk aging in the carboy allows you to adjust the wine as you see necessary and might prevent you from dipping into it too soon, since wine removed from the carboy needs to be replaced. But if you need the carboy, you need the carboy. I think what happens with many people is they bottle quickly early in their winemaking in an effort to build up supply, but still enjoy the fruits of their labor without waiting forever. As the supply builds, the urgency to bottle diminishes.

 

[ryakar]

It depends on your situation, really. Bulk aging in the carboy allows you to adjust the wine as you see necessary and might prevent you from dipping into it too soon, since wine removed from the carboy needs to be replaced. But if you need the carboy, you need the carboy. I think what happens with many people is they bottle quickly early in their winemaking in an effort to build up supply, but still enjoy the fruits of their labor without waiting forever. As the supply builds, the urgency to bottle diminishes.

Well I guess since I am lucky enough not to need the carboy and was looking at more anyway, it seems logical as you say to be able to adjust it as need be(with proper research of course). As for the supply, this is why I am looking at a few kits that will take longer to come of age so to speak. Then one more geared more to drink right away, with visits to the LCBO, for some that I like to have.

Appreciate the advice, Kool-Aid was easy. And, while I am not fooling myself into thinking my kits will rock the world with time and patience I feel I can have some nice wines in the longer run. Just to now decide on the other wines, lol, too many choices. Thanks again

 

[richmke]

If one does not yet own a barrel for aging, are you better off aging it in bulk in the carboy or in the bottles?

Bulk aging in a Carboy allows you to skip the Clarifiers and Degassing. Time will do it for you.

There was something I read where the person felt that each time he stirred up the Bentonite, it stripped a little more flavor from the wine.

 

[ryakar]

Bulk aging in a Carboy allows you to skip the Clarifiers and Degassing. Time will do it for you.

There was something I read where the person felt that each time he stirred up the Bentonite, it stripped a little more flavor from the wine.

I would never have thought of that but it is good to know what someone has said or found. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Putterrr]

went to college in TB. if you are friends with an Italian and they still bring in the truck loads of grapes in the fall, volunteer to help. my aunts father made wine from grapes every year.

cheers

 

[ryakar]

went to college in TB. if you are friends with an Italian and they still bring in the truck loads of grapes in the fall, volunteer to help. my aunts father made wine from grapes every year.

cheers

Yes Maltese is always quite busy with that