Kits versus wine from crushing grapes

[Rocky]

Sorry..... Have to disagree. Flour to bread is a terrible comparison to pasteurized kit juice to fresh crushed premium grapes! I can give you the best chef in the world.... But if has has to prepare a meal with tough meat vs. a filet. It will be different! Bottom line I believe it is not about quality. That is a given! It is more about time and money... People will give all the reasons and excuses they want. It is still about time and money.


Sam

Sam, for me it does have to do with time, money and many other things. But it is not just that I don't have the time or don't have the money. It is more I don't see a justifiable differential value of making wine from grapes at this stage in my life given the time, money, space, mess, fruit flies, equipment required, seasonality, limited selection of grape varieties, etc. when I can make wine from juice buckets and kits that is very, very drinkable and that friends, neighbors, relatives and I perceive is as good or better than commercial wines costing up to $25. This is not to say that these conditions and preferences exist for everyone.

Secondly, I believe that GaDawg's analogy in making bread does have merit. If you make pasta sauce, do you start with fresh tomatoes, skin them, seed them and puree them? I don't. I have done so when I had a garden and the sauce was wonderful. I now find that Contadina, Hunt's and a number of other canners do a very good job and the differential benefit of processing my own tomatoes is not a good value proposition for me. If someone finds it is worth it to process their own tomatoes, more power to them.

Further, I respectfully disagree with your analogy of a "the best chef in the world." If he were truly the best chef in the World or even just a talented chef, he could take a tough piece of meat and make it taste like a filet. This is not unlike some of the "tweaking" I do with juice buckets and kits.

Lastly, if you think quality is a "given" for wine from fresh grapes, you need to taste some of the homemade wines I have had, made from fresh grapes. I think the rule is, There is no rule and just as one can mess up a fine filet, another can make excellent wine from a juice bucket or kit.

 

[richmke]

Filet is actually not the best cut for flavor. A great Chef will take the tougher cuts, like flank and skirt, that have a lot of flavor, and do wonders with it.

Fresh ingredients are usually the best. However, it is only relatively recently that fresh ingredients are available year-round. It use to be that frozen is the best you can get. Some would say that even fresh is not so great. They have been designed to survive transportation, and taste. Locally grown fresh heirloom varieties is the best.

So, a premium kit wine is the equivalent to the best frozen/canned veggies that are made from the best. They can be better than ho-hum fresh grapes.

 

[blumentopferde]

Sam, for me it does have to do with time, money and many other things. But it is not just that I don't have the time or don't have the money. It is more I don't see a justifiable differential value of making wine from grapes at this stage in my life given the time, money, space, mess, fruit flies, equipment required, seasonality, limited selection of grape varieties, etc. when I can make wine from juice buckets and kits that is very, very drinkable and that friends, neighbors, relatives and I perceive is as good or better than commercial wines costing up to $25. This is not to say that these conditions and preferences exist for everyone.

My approach is totally different:
I can get top quality wine for around 10$ per bottle, so making wine doesn't really pay off moneywise. For me it's more about the experience of grape growing and the tweaking and playing around in the winemaking process. But mostly it is about seeing the plants grow, getting them through the year and get rewarded by ripe and beautiful fruits (Ok, I haven't been that successful so far, but that's part of the challenge). If I had no garden I wouldn't care much about winemaking...

 

[sdelli]

Rocky... I am not saying you cannot make good wine from a kit. Only that you cannot ever make great wine from a kit! You will never be able to produce a $100 or $150 bottle of wine from a kit. But you can from fresh grapes! This definitly says something about the product you are starting with. Funny thing is that I see once people have trained their pallet to kit wine they don't even enjoy fresh grape wine usually... Not always... But usually... And I have tasted kit wine that won big awards... To me... It tasted like a kit wine....


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[ibglowin]

I disagree and I have made both. You can make great wine from a kit. It just takes a lot of tweaks, time and $$$. And 99% of us can't make a $100-$150 bottle of wine from fresh grapes because you/we will never have access to that quality of starting material unless you are married or related to the vineyard manager or vineyard owner. It is easier to make a good/great bottle of wine from fresh grapes for about the same price per bottle as a high end kit. If you have access to the starting materials and equipment I recommend fresh grapes over a kit any day. But for those who live in a place that fresh grapes are not readily available or have no access to a crusher and press a high end kit as about as good as it gets.

 

[sour_grapes]

You will never be able to produce a $100 or $150 bottle of wine from a kit. But you can from fresh grapes! This definitly says something about the product you are starting with.

And you will never win the Indy 500 with a production car. But you can with a custom-made car!! Therefore, custom-made cars are better than production cars!

 

[richmke]

When money is no object .... I might as well buy the $150 bottle of wine.

 

[JohnT]

Rocky... I am not saying you cannot make good wine from a kit. Only that you cannot ever make great wine from a kit! You will never be able to produce a $100 or $150 bottle of wine from a kit. But you can from fresh grapes! This definitly says something about the product you are starting with. Funny thing is that I see once people have trained their pallet to kit wine they don't even enjoy fresh grape wine usually... Not always... But usually... And I have tasted kit wine that won big awards... To me... It tasted like a kit wine....


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Now, You folks know me. I AM the resident wine snob. You also should know that I have only made 1 batch of kit wine several decades ago with horrible results. Out of tradition, economics, experience, and preference, I have always made my wine from fresh grapes.

Then joeswine took me to school. After tasting his san gio, I have to tell you that it IS possible to make a $150 bottle of wine from a kit. I was elated. I was so happy to know that I can continue making wine should circumstances change where I no longer have a labor force or large dedicated space for equipment.

The kits available today are amazing! In fact, more and more wine competitions are now judging kit wines and wines from fresh fruit together, side by side.

On a side note: Most winemakers do not ask each other "why". We already know that we do this simply for the love of it.

 

[GaDawg]

And you will never win the Indy 500 with a production car. But you can with a custom-made car!! Therefore, custom-made cars are better than production cars!

Paul, I don't believe any of us could win the Indy 500 with any car

 

[sour_grapes]

Paul, I don't believe any of us could win the Indy 500 with any car

Hey, don't be too sure: http://voices.yahoo.com/5-wineries-owned-celebrity-race-car-drivers-6881214.html

 

[GaDawg]

Cool


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[berrycrush]

My question to kit experts:
1. Are kit juice made from steam juicer?
2. How do you judge the quality of a kit besides looking at the label?

 

[Rocky]

Berrycrush,

I can't help a lot with question 1 except to say that the juice is normally pasteurized which raises the temperature to something under the boiling point so it would seem that a process close to steaming is used. I am not sure.

On question 2, my experience (and this is a limited sample size) has been to follow these guidelines:
a. red wine kits with a higher volume of concentrate, e.g. 16 liters or more, generally make a better wine.
b. red wine kits with a crushed grape pack or raisins make a better wine than those which don't have these items.
c. white wine kits of 16 liters of concentrate or more make the best wine but I have found a few 12 liter white wine kits that make a very nice white wine. Cellar Craft Sterling and RJ Spagnols Gran Cru International are examples of 12 liter white wine kits I have made and with which I have been pleased.
d. I am always skeptical about "all juice kits" i.e. 23 liters no water needed. There have been reports that these kits are nothing more than a cheaper kit with the water added. If you order them on-line, as I do, you a paying to ship a lot of water.
e. This statement will be somewhat controversial but it has been my experience that red wine kits from Mosti Mondiale are not as good as those from Cellar Craft, RJ Spagnols or WinExpert.

I am sure that this will start a firestorm of discussion but this forum is largely based on the experiences of the members. Good luck with your wine.

 

[bkisel]

Pretty much what Rocky said but you can, by tweaking, turn a lower end kit into a finished wine that tastes like it was made from a more expensive kit.

 

[zalai]

I agree with Rocky , most of the time you get what you pay for .

 

[Dugger]

My question to kit experts:
1. Are kit juice made from steam juicer?
2. How do you judge the quality of a kit besides looking at the label?

The juice is comprised of pure juice and juice concentrate, in various ratios and is flash pasteurized under high pressure. This article, winemakermag.com/your-first-wine-from -a-kit , gives some explanation.
Quality as per previous posters.

 

[berrycrush]

The juice is comprised of pure juice and juice concentrate, in various ratios and is flash pasteurized under high pressure. This article, winemakermag.com/your-first-wine-from -a-kit , gives some explanation.
Quality as per previous posters.

So they use a pressure-cooking steam juicer?

 

[Dugger]

So they use a pressure-cooking steam juicer?

No, it's pumped through small pipes at high pressure which produces the high temperature - no steaming involved.

 

[berrycrush]

No, it's pumped through small pipes at high pressure which produces the high temperature - no steaming involved.

Have you seen one in operation?

 

[Dugger]

Yes - both Spagnols and Winexpert in Vancouver.