Kits vs commercial bottle price chart

[ithink2020]

If this has been done already, please help me find it. If not, looking for insight.

I'm looking for a chart (or to create one), where kits are listed by how the finish product compares to commercial bottle prices.

So, what kits make wine compared to $5 bottles of commercial wine? Then, $10, $15, $20, $25. Without tweaks.

I understand that some of this is going to be subjective, but looking to understand kit ranges a little better.

Also, if there is an exception to the rule, that would be not that as well. For example, if people say XYZ Select kits typically make wine compared to a $10 bottle of commercial wine but the Merlot is an exception, as it produces something compared to a $15 bottle. That would be good to know.

Does something already exist?

I hope this makes since.

 

[crushday]

I would say that kits make $18-$25 per bottle compared to commercial wines. That’s at the top price point of most of the populous for a non celebratory bottle.

I’ve been on an incessant search to make +$25 wine and I’m convinced that real (frozen or fresh) grapes are the only way to accomplish this.

 

[CDrew]

So, this thought process is not smart. If you like making wine, the cost does not matter. Make your wine, enjoy it, and don't worry that it only measures up to what ever price point. Kit wines are likely a pretty low bar, but they are what they are. Do not look at home winemaking to save money. It's like Costco. Like, maybe you saved money, but you still spent $350.

 

[Doug’s wines]

Before heading down the path of trying to create a list like that, you would need to first think about what drives the price of a bottle of wine. I read a pretty good study about ten years ago that I can’t put my finger on right now about the price of wine, From a raw component standpoint, there just really isn’t that much difference in cost in what’s in the bottle beyond $15. (again ten years ago so higher now, probably 20-25). Beyond that price point, the drivers are wine maker skill (process, blending, adjustments, etc), localized production costs (labor, maintenance, etc), marketing, perceived scarcity, etc.

So the first real question is, as a kit is there a “quality” version that can get you to the “highest end of the components” stage.

The second part of that question, is as a wine maker, do you have the skill and materials to properly barrel age, blend, adjust, etc.

If yes to both, then theoretically you can make as good a wine as there is on the market at any price point.

Some random thoughts:
- components - Given kits are usually concentrates, then my guess on the first question is that we are starting with inferior product, but who knows.
- barrels - we don’t really have access in our homes to the same things a commercial winemaker has, though my access has been improving. For example I have barrels now, but all my wine of a single kit goes in one barrel. At the winery, they will do things like 30% new French oak, 30% new American, and 40% neutral for example which i can’t yet mirror.
- blending - one of the best kit wines I’ve made, was a blend of 2 kits. I made a high end Cab and merlot and blended them together to make a very nice 60/40 blend. Still many high end wines, even the so called “single varieties” (which may only have to be aprox 80% to be called that depending on where they are from), have 3-5 different blended ellements and I usually don’t have that many wines appropriate to blend on hand at any given time. Also petite Verdot is commonly used to give structure to a bland wine, and I have not found a good pv kit yet.
- expensive wine - I’ve been fortunate in my career to have access to enjoy some very expensive wine, and I’ve been a club member of some wineries that produce them as well. The enjoyment is generally in the complexity and layers of the wine. Those seem to be created by the wine making process most often.

Bottom line - Great wines are often produced by people with great skill, which I think is the most required element and can’t be bought in a kit.

 

[Kraffty]

Just an additional note to Doug's reply. You also need to toss in your cost of bottles, corks, shrinks and labels if using them. That cost can vary from Pennies to 4 or 5 dollars depending on how you finish your bottling.
Mike

 

[Fingaluna]

ithink2020,

It can very much depend on where you live. I also disagree with Cdrew's position that it's not smart to consider the Cost Savings. It may be entirely worth it, depending on how much decent wine costs to purchase.

Here in Ontario, a decent bottle of wine is MINIMUM $10CAD. I get pails of reasonable quality juice for $55, and get 24 bottles from my efforts. $2.50/bottle all done.
My family of 6 drinks 2 bottles a night, maybe 5 nights a week.
Yes, I could buy $7 wine (that's the Floor Price in Ontario) but the wine is terrible.
In a week, we save $75 buy drinking out own wine. I'd put it on par with a $10 - $12 bottle.
Could we save more by not drinking? Yep. However, I like wine, and it helps me to keep my Diabetes in control.
I like making wine, but I also really like the savings. A Lot.

I absolutely buy nicer wines for special evenings / occasions. Could I make something on par with a Masi Ripasso? Possibly, but I'm not interested in the 2+ years that I believe it would take to produce this, as well as the significantly higher cost for the better juice.

Long and Short, I definitely make wine to save money, and I also like doing it.

Cheers!

 

[jsiddall]

I don't want to rain on your parade, but I went down this same path 7 years ago. I bought the best kits I could at the time (Cellarcraft Showcase) and made several different varieties. I still have some of those original bottles (Red Mountain Cabernet, Super Tuscan and Argentina Malbec), which probably tells you all you need to know. They all turned drinkable, after several years, but none of them tasted like even the cheapest commercial wine and there are plenty of $10 commercial bottles available in Ontario that I would much rather drink.

It's a bit hard to explain why. They all had some strange musky and oddly sweet flavors that masked any varietal identity. All I can say for sure in a blind tasting is that I can reliably identify them as "kit" varietal. They certainly don't lack any flavor. On the contrary, many are more flavorful than commercial wines, but just not flavors I enjoy.

I later made several more kits with tweaks (extended fermentation, no sorbate, more oak, barrel aging) and those were all better, and some even became very good after several years. But none were better than wines I made from comparably priced grapes, so I basically stopped making kits and now make only from grapes. My experience is decent grapes can get you competitive to a $20 commercial bottle but you need to know someone in a vineyard to get premium grapes if you want to get much beyond that.

So there is my hard, cold perspective. Having said all that, many people here think kit wine is awesome, and you might be one of them. If so you are lucky. To find out, my advice is to try your favorite style of the best kit you can get and see if you like it. Plan on leaving it for at least a year or two before you pass your final judgement. Worst case, you are out about $150 and have something to make Sangarias with, or to give away if you can.

Regarding the various types, whites seem better than reds to me, and limited editions seem better than unlimited, so I would recommend those to start. Good luck!

 

[joeswine]

well here's my 2 cents..I have made it all from ,grapes to fruit all from fresh products, then kits.
If you have the skill and ability you can make a kit wine to stand up to any of the above raw products, what it takes is a good base product and knowledge to know how to make the necessary changes to the base to have an effective out come that's all any wine maker does no matter what the starting product is, period, or the cost.

In competition I've went up against all venues of wine making and I know some of you here have also ,blind tasting competitions are the answer to a wine makers question ,HOW IS MY PRODUCT. you see this time and time again and yes its all subjective. I you look at the results from the largest contest in this country you'll find that the a vast majority of first place winners are kits verses the rest. just my thoughts.
Grape wines ,verses kits in contest like Hammonton's down my way with balanced entries or winemakers mag., check out the results.
OH and as you get older you cant wait 2 to 5 years down the road to taste it, really. just another thought .

 

[szap]

Anymore our main source of wine is what I make from kits. We have found we much prefer them over $10 to $15 a bottle commercial wines. To our taste the kits make a smoother wine than the lower cost bottles. But as to comparisons, lower cost kits work out to under $3 a bottle including corks and labels. The most expensive kit we make (mostly winexpert Eclipse) work out to a little over $5 a bottle. Finding wines in the $3 - $5 a bottle to compare to kit wines is all but impossible, but for out taste, kits make very decent wines for a cost 1/3 the commercial wines we would buy.

 

[joeswine]

Have you follow the thread tweaking cheap wine kits,at all?

 

[ithink2020]

Have you follow the thread tweaking cheap wine kits,at all?

Yes. I'm making a couple kits per the instructions to remind myself how to do things, before I get into tweaking. I do have a WE Classic Pinot Noir that I might tweak once I have a free Carboy.

 

[joeswine]

I Pino is good with blueberries or raspberries, they ad a smoothness to the finish

 

[joeswine]

Blueberries and raspberries are good partners with the fruit forward wines, you don't taste the fruit actually they add to the background and taste depth
That's all, they really work.

 

[DizzyIzzy]

If this has been done already, please help me find it. If not, looking for insight.

I'm looking for a chart (or to create one), where kits are listed by how the finish product compares to commercial bottle prices.

So, what kits make wine compared to $5 bottles of commercial wine? Then, $10, $15, $20, $25. Without tweaks.

I understand that some of this is going to be subjective, but looking to understand kit ranges a little better.

Also, if there is an exception to the rule, that would be not that as well. For example, if people say XYZ Select kits typically make wine compared to a $10 bottle of commercial wine but the Merlot is an exception, as it produces something compared to a $15 bottle. That would be good to know.

Does something already exist?

I hope this makes since.

It makes sense to me, but unfortunately I don't have any info for you. I will be eagerly awaiting just such info myself................................Dizzy

 

[DizzyIzzy]

well here's my 2 cents..I have made it all from ,grapes to fruit all from fresh products, then kits.
If you have the skill and ability you can make a kit wine to stand up to any of the above raw products, what it takes is a good base product and knowledge to know how to make the necessary changes to the base to have an effective out come that's all any wine maker does no matter what the starting product is, period, or the cost.

In competition I've went up against all venues of wine making and I know some of you here have also ,blind tasting competitions are the answer to a wine makers question ,HOW IS MY PRODUCT. you see this time and time again and yes its all subjective. I you look at the results from the largest contest in this country you'll find that the a vast majority of first place winners are kits verses the rest. just my thoughts.
Grape wines ,verses kits in contest like Hammonton's down my way with balanced entries or winemakers mag., check out the results.
OH and as you get older you cant wait 2 to 5 years down the road to taste it, really. just another thought .

Hey, Joe, I'm with you.................I may not have 2-5 years. Maybe I will, but can't plan on it at my age. I am shooting for something drinkable within the year...............Sad, but true!........................................Dizzy

 

[joeswine]

I might not remember were I put them

 

[Reign]

Where I live in Ontario, Canada kits are many times cheaper than buying it. Vineyard down the road sells their 750 ml bottles of wine for $26 each. It most certainly is better than my kit wine, but not a chance in hell I will pay that price. I am slowly gravitating to higher priced kits just to see how good the wine is. I will always use kits though, not as advanced as some of you folks are here.

 

[joeswine]

Like everything else it takes time and on hand experience to get it down ,we're here all the time.

 

[kuziwk]

I would say that kits make $18-$25 per bottle compared to commercial wines. That’s at the top price point of most of the populous for a non celebratory bottle.

I’ve been on an incessant search to make +$25 wine and I’m convinced that real (frozen or fresh) grapes are the only way to accomplish this.

This seems accurate, i've always said the high end kits make $30 to $35 per bottle but thats Canadian. $25 USD is 35$ CAD ,plus liquor is taxed up here pretty bad compared to the US, it depends on the state though.