RJ Spagnols Leaking Wine Kits

[Gekko4321]

I had alot of wine froth/foam on top, after stirring vigorously, and was using the hydrometer that comes with George's deluxe kit. I gotta be honest that OG could have been 1.105 or even 1.095. My best guess was 1.10. The difference in the final product can be that significant for a .005? Should I add water or let it be? I am at about 21.875 liters currently with the liter of wine lost and a pullback in water to match proportionally. I'll stay the course unless you think I should add more water. Final note-I think its so odd I live 30 minutes from Temecula wine country in Southern California and 3 hours from the Central Coast, yet I get the same Cali juice from a Canadian manufacturer who ships it to George in Texas and then ships it back to me in California! Circle of life, circle of juice I guess! Ha.

 

[Rocky]

Gekko,


It is probably a good call to let it go and not add any water. You will have a very nice wine.


Regarding the differences between OG's of 1.105, 1.100 and 1.095 in ABV, they would be approximately 13.8%, 13.2% and 12.5%, respectively.


Also, when you take your SG readings, after sanitizing everything, slide the hydrometer into the wine thief and then pull enough wine into the thief to easily float the hydrometer. You will be able to get away from the foam this way and get a more accurate reading of SG.

 

[Gekko4321]

Great advice guys. Thanks again. As of today, day 3, my fermenter has started to bubble inside so pretty excited about that! I am sure I will have to lean on your advice throughout this process so thanks again for all the help now and in the future.

 

[Rocky]

Scott,


We all learn together. It really helps to get several views on an issue, examine the rationale behind them and make a decision. Even when things go wrong, we learn. Thomas Edison said he never learned anything from his successes; he only learned from his failures.

 

[Gekko4321]

Great insight Rocky! So on the issue of sealing or not sealing the container in primary stage. I note that my airlock is not bubbling when unsealed and lid lying on top, it just sits there while there is obvious activity in the fermenter. When I apply a seal and lock down the lid I notice the airlock now bubbles! I recognize that it has been said it does not matter, but is there an ideal condition? The idea the airlock doesnt bubble makes it clear there is no pressure inside. I also wonder if there is a day count/hydro reading to when it is better to start sealing. It is day 4 and hydrometer is showing 1.055 down from 1.105 so heading in the right direction! Instead of froth, now have fizzing. And as to etiquette, is it better to start new topics when I have random questions or keep one thread going? Thanks!

 

[Bartman]

I have never sealed down my primary bucket's lid. Since I lost the grommet that would allow me to snugly attach the airlock, it's not even an option. I ferment to dry in the bucket with the lid resting on top - never had a problem other than (one time) some foaming that overflowed due to the lid, might have overflowed anyway though.

 

[Rocky]

I have never sealed my primary fermenter and I normally take the wine down to less than 1.010 before I rack the first time. Your lid lying on top does not "seal" the container; it merely covers it and allows the large volume of gas to dissapate around the lid.There is such a large volume of gas coming out that sealing is not necessary at this point. After your first racking, you do need to seal the carboy or whatever you have racked into. So, depending on the directions you have, whether you rack at less than 1.020 or 1.010, that is when to you need to apply an airlock. As Bart says, many of the guys and gals on this forum ferment to dry(i.e.SG of .998 or .997) in their primary.That is apersonal choice and both wayswork.


Lastly, there is no etiquette on the forum!

If youhave a new topic that fits one of the major categories, post a new topic. If you have somethingthat is related to the current topic, add it.

 

[Flem]

+1 to what Rocky said. But it is important to seal it with an airlock when you get down below 1.010 to 1.020 regardless of whether you use a carboy or primary fermenter. At that time there isn't enough CO2 to protect it without an airlock.

 

[v1rotate]

+1 to what Rocky said. But it is important to seal it with an airlock when you get down below 1.010 to 1.020 regardless of whether you use a carboy or primary fermenter. At that time there isn't enough CO2 to protect it without an airlock.

Hmm, if members are fermenting to dry with out sealing their buckets with no problems, I suspect that there IS plenty of CO2 present to protect the wine from oxidation until you degas it. (At least for kit wines which have so much dissolved CO2 present.) That said, I transfer to a carboy at whatever point is stated in the instructions and apply my airlock...

 

[robie]

Hmm, if members are fermenting to dry with out sealing their buckets with no problems, I suspect that there IS plenty of CO2 present to protect the wine from oxidation until you degas it. (At least for kit wines which have so much dissolved CO2 present.)

Problem is, you won't know if it is a problem or not until you try to put a little age on that wine and it turns brown on you. If you are going to drink it in 6 months, it may not matter. Do you really want to risk an expensive batch of wine?

 

[Rocky]

In other words, when all else fails, read the instructions!

There's an interesting concept!

I used to fall back on this when assembling Christmas toys, especiallly when I ended up with extra parts.

 

[Wade E]

There is aerobic fermentation and anaerobic fermentation. Basically in the beginning your yeast needs 02 to do its job and multiply but near the end like around 1.020 its important that the 02 be null so as the yeast stop producing and start turning their energy more towards making alc. Also, without anaerobic fermentation lactic acid can not be created thus making your wine harsher. This paragraph below is copied from Wikipedia. Some of it gets a little over my head but it does explain it in English also if you read further.
"
<h3>Lactic acid fermentation</span></h3>


Lactic acid fermentation is the simplest type of fermentation. In essence, it is a redox
reaction. In anaerobic conditions, the cell’s primary mechanism of ATP
production is glycolysis. Glycolysis reduces – transfers electrons to – NAD⁺, forming NADH. However, there is only a limited supply of NAD⁺ available in a cell. For glycolysis to continue, NADH must be oxidized – have electrons taken away – to regenerate the NAD⁺. This is usually done through an electron transport chain in a process called oxidative phosphorylation; however, this mechanism is not available without oxygen.<sup id="cite_ref-Volume_3._Thorpe_1922._p.159_5-0" ="reference">[</span>6]</span></sup>


Instead, the NADH donates its extra electrons to the pyruvate
molecules formed during glycolysis. Since the NADH has lost electrons,
NAD⁺ regenerates and is again available for glycolysis. Lactic acid, for which this process is named, is formed by the reduction of pyruvate"

 

[Gekko4321]

So on the topic I have been opening fermenter up 2 times a day to stir and push hop bag full of oak and raisins down. Did not weight it down enough apparently. Do you agree with this? Safe enough?

 

[Rocky]

Scott,


Most people do not weightdown the bag and as the grapes inside ferment they produce CO2 and that causes the bag to rise to the surface. Opening the fermenter and pushing down the bag a couple times a day is needed and there is no danger. I use my long spoon and I push the bag down and hold it until it loses some of the bouancy. If you do this, you will see a lot of gas rising to the surface.

 

[ibglowin]

Perfectly safe.

So on the topic I have been opening fermenter up 2 times a day to stir and push hop bag full of oak and raisins down. Did not weight it down enough apparently. Do you agree with this? Safe enough?

 

[ArdenS]

Just don't forget to sanitize the spoon (voice of experience).

 

[robie]

So on the topic I have been opening fermenter up 2 times a day to stir and push hop bag full of oak and raisins down. Did not weight it down enough apparently. Do you agree with this? Safe enough?

I have to ask "when" do you do this? If the SG is above about 1.020, there is no problem at all. Below that point I don't agree that it is a good thing. You will probably get by with it, but it is not a good idea.

At around ~1.020 most of the kits have you move from primary to a carboy. If you have a grape pack, at that time you would typically not transfer the grape pack to the carboy (secondary).

Even with fresh/frozen grapes at some point above ~1.000 you press off the skins and remove them from the wine entirely and start secondary.

The idea is to be off the skins during secondary. So if you leave your wine in a fermentor bucket during secondary, you probably should have removed the skins. If you choose not to remove them, at least weight them down so they won't float.

The oak floating on top is not usually a problem, especially if it is not in a bag during secondary. The surface of the floating bag can mold and keep the oak suspended. When I ferment to dry in the bucket (I often do), during secondary I tilt and rotate the bucket and cause the wine inside to swirl. This helps wet any floating oak.

Oxidation is sort of a cumulative thing. You can't help but expose wine to oxygen at some points, so keep exposure to a minimum when you possibly can.

 

[Rocky]

I have never made an EP kit so I don't know what the directions say about the first racking. If you are planning to leave it in the primary fermenter and ferment to dry, it seems that at around just under SG 1.020, I would squeeze out the grape skin bag and discard, install an air lock in the lidand snap down the lid of the primary fermenter. Remember to install the airlock away from the fermenter so you don't push the rubber grommet into the wine.

 

[robie]

I have never made an EP kit so I don't know what the directions say about the first racking. If you are planning to leave it in the primary fermenter and ferment to dry, it seems that at around just under SG 1.020, I would squeeze out the grape skin bag and discard, install an air lock in the lidand snap down the lid of the primary fermenter. Remember to install the airlock away from the fermenter so you don't push the rubber grommet into the wine.

Yep, that is pretty standard for grape pack kits. I do like to keep my secondary in the fermentor bucket. Plus, it saves that extra racking.

 

[Gekko4321]

My plan, according to the instructions, was to transfer to the carboy under 1.02. Yesterday was 1.05 and I have not tested today yet (day 5). I was going to toss the oak/raisin hop bag out then. Per the instructions I would now let the wine sit in the carboy till day 28 before moving to the degassing stage. If I follow the directions, do I need to top off secondary when I transfer at 1.02? I plan to use a random Cali Cabernet. Ok? How much do you top off with too? I am not sure where 6 gallon mark is on glass carboy and have less wine due to leaking kit. What is the advantage to moving to secondary before dry? In other wine making I think I read it had to do with getting rid of gross lees but not sure it applies here in kits. Thanks for the continuing advice!