RJ Spagnols Leaking Wine Kits

[robie]

Gekko,

You move to secondary before dry because the rate of fermentation has slowed considerably, so the wine needs to be protected from oxygen. To start secondary, you typically rack wine to a carboy; you keep the wine from oxygen by installing an air lock. Yes, getting the wine off the gross lees is another reason to rack to secondary.

IMO, you don't really need to top off in secondary; only after you rack from secondary (after all fermentation is done). During secondary, although much slower, there is still CO2 bubbling out of the wine and it forces out any air from the carboy.

After your 28 day point, before topping off, you stabilize and degas. Once degassed, you add your clarifier(s), top off and start the clearing stage.


Do topping off after wine is in the carboy and clearing. Top off so that wine is above the shoulders of
the carboy and up into the lower part of the neck of the carboy. Use a like wine to top off if you have it. If not, use a merlot if your wine is a red.

 

[Gekko4321]

Thanks Richard! Nailed every question I had in there! One follow up. Do I wait until day 28 to degas, without disturbing the airlock no matter what, or can I take hydro readings during this time? What if I am at .998 before day 28--still wait? I am curious that if at .998, which I assume is what is called 'dry', if taking hydro readings and not being topped off is an oxygen risk.

 

[robie]

Its only dry if the SG has not changed three days in a row. .998 is only a reference point, which you may not reach or you may even surpass.

I would leave it until day 25 and take the SG. Then on day 28 check it again. If it hasn't moved, your fermentation is done.

Taking these SG readings is short and sweet and should not be considered a risk. You just don't need to be taking them too often.

It might get dry sooner and yes, you could check it sooner, but I'd just be patient and wait. Don't worry about whether or not the air lock is still bubbling. It can still bubble off CO2, even after the wine is dry, or it may seem it hasn't bubbled in days, even though it is still fermenting very slowly... just wait.

Once the SG has stopped going down, proceed only by your kit instructions. They will likely tell you to rack, stabilize, degas, then clear. Some kit makers, like WineXpert, do things a little differently sometimes, so follow your instructions.

Do you intend to bulk age?

 

[Gekko4321]

So even if secondary ferment is done earlier than expected, the CO2 produced will clear the carboy prior and no oxygen will creep back in, is that about right? I assume the topping off after degassing is to push out oxygen that lies there during that process, but wanted to make sure. I have been debating bottling versus bulk aging and I think bulk aging makes more sense. Plus I also think I want to cold stabilize. I am lucky enough to have a small fridge the carboy can fit in. I am not cemented in either decision yet but I am thinking about it. You have thoughts on this? I would love to hear them.

 

[robie]

Bulk ageing is better for me. Those that bottle right away sometimes end up with sediment in the bottles. Some get in too big a hurry to bottle. Getting rid of all the CO2 is hard enough, even when you bulk age under an air lock, let alone when you bottle right away.

It also give you the opportunity to add more oak or other things like tannin products, and make adjustments. Once it is bottled, there is not much else you can do. If you bulk age, you can degas again before you bottle, especially if you have a vacuum pump.

Other than my summer wines, I seldom bottle for at least a year, most of the time longer. If you decide to bottle sooner, wait at least a couple of months after the wine is cleared completely.

Air is lighter than CO2, so the COS will keep air off the surface of the wine and push it out the air lock. The wine can set in secondary a week or more after fermentation and not get access to oxygen.

The air lock keeps oxygen (air) from being sucked into the carboy. Yes, you top off to cut down on the amount of anything that might get into the open space above the wine.

Cold stabilization is good when you have a wine that might drop tartaric crystals later on. I cold stabilize some of my more expensive kits and wines from fresh/frozen grapes. Wish I had a frig; I have to wait until winter and use my garage as a cold stabilization room.

 

[Rocky]

Scott, you are getting a lot of good advice here. On the issue of cold stabilization though, I would not do it to this Cabernet Sauvignon. That process is normally reserved for wines that you would serve cold such as whites and blushes. I'm sure you would normally serve your Cabernet Sauvignon at a wine cellar temperature or slightly higher, like 60-65 degrees F. Some people feel that the cold stabilization process takes some of the flavor away along with the tartrate crystals.

 

[robie]

Generally speaking I agree with Rocky. Sometimes an expensive, high
quality, higher acid kit like the RJ Spagnol En Primer Delu Ranch
Cab/Sav, or a cab from fresh grapes can use cold stabilization. You do
it based on your experience and that of other wine makers, who have made it before. For example,
I would not have known to cold stab. the Delu Ranch Cab had someone
else not told me. I am glad I did because it dropped a lot of crystals.



Which En Primer kits do you have?

 

[Gekko4321]

I am currently making the En Primeur Delu Ranch Cabernet Sauvignon. I have the EP Sauvignon Blanc on deck and a Cellar Craft Showcase Old Vine Zin after that. Knowing that I have to be patient for perhaps 2 years I decided I should make a few up front! I have done some cursory investigating on the internet and it seems to me that reds served at cellar temps (57 degrees-ish) will show crystals. I do get that the crystals do not hurt the wine at all, but I intend to give many away as gifts and those not in the hobby IMO, might be troubled by the crystals. And I would hate to have to explain upfront about them. But I would not want to trade taste for this! My understanding has been the crystals are more likely and loss of taste is unlikely. I thought I would bother you guys with this debate later on but since it has been brought up...

 

[Wade E]

Yep, the EPits will drop quite a bit of crystals out if you dont cold stabilize it while bulk aging. If you dont mind them in the bottle then dont worry about it, just leave the last 1/2 glass in the bottle and not pour it into your glass unless you like your wine crunchy!!! LOL

 

[Gekko4321]

So today is Day 6 and when I did a hydro reading I got 1.005 which means I blew right thru 1.02! I got the wine in the carboy with airlock in place still bubbling. The number makes me wonder how close I am to this wine being 'dry'/done fermenting. My instructions tell me to wait till under .998 but at the same time says this should be around day 28 approximately. At that time I would degas. I am confused over whether I am to wait till the SG number is hit or wait till day 28. Any thoughts? Also I had maybe a 1/4 inch of sediment in bucket and I thought there would be more. Oak chips/raisins were in hop bag. I left about a cup or two of wine so I did not risk pulling sediment up. I notice the smell was still sweet. I have been waiting for that sweet smell to turn more into wine smell. Does this all sound about right to you? I have no issues being as patient as needed so I am not in any hurry. Just want to make sure I am on the right track. Thanks.

 

[PeterZ]

I would leave it until day 28. You will probably be "dry" and finished with fermentation in a couple more days (I've never had a kit that took more than 2 weeks to go fully dry), but it won't hurt it to sit for the remaining time.


If I were making the kit I would rack it to a clean, sanitized carboy, add the K-meta and K-sorbate, top it up, put an airlock on it, and leave it for a couple of months. I rarely bottle wines less than a year old.

 

[Flem]

I don't believe 1.005 is dry enough. I'd wait 'til you get to around .998 for about 3 days in a row before continuing. IMO

 

[vcasey]

I don't believe 1.005 is dry enough. I'd wait 'til you get to around .998 for about 3 days in a row before continuing. IMO

DITTO!! Keep in mind you really have to work hard at messing up a kit so take a deep breath and give it a day. Then check the SG, you want it to be steady for 3 days in a row, then you can move forward. I've had kits go dry in as little as 5 days and others take up to 2 weeks or longer. Lots of reasons why including the yeast health and outside temps to name a couple. So just give your wine one last longing look and walk away, open a bottle of wine and pour yourself a glass, go to George's online store and order your next kit (get 2, you know you want to) and an extra carboy (cause well they multiply so might as well get started).

 

[Gekko4321]

Flem and Vcasey, I think you misunderstood my post. I am not looking to pull now! I just transferred to secondary. I was just asking if I should be taking hydro readings over the next few weeks looking for 'dry' or simply waiting till day 28 (21 days from now). The RJ instructions were confusing in that regard.

 

[vcasey]

I would let it sit (others may disagree as we each have developed our own go to methods), the wine will be just fine. In 2 1/2 weeks you can check the SG for the 3 days straight. The wine is releasing CO2 so it'll be protected especially if you leave the air lock alone and like I said you really do need to work to have a problem with any kit wine. It happens but its unusual.
At this point you should really follow the rest of my instructions and walk away. Some let to talk to their wines each day but that's your call!

 

[Gekko4321]

Ha ha! Thanks vcasey for the advice!

 

[v1rotate]

So today is Day 6 and when I did a hydro reading I got 1.005 which means I blew right thru 1.02! I got the wine in the carboy with airlock in place still bubbling. The number makes me wonder how close I am to this wine being 'dry'/done fermenting. My instructions tell me to wait till under .998 but at the same time says this should be around day 28 approximately. At that time I would degas. I am confused over whether I am to wait till the SG number is hit or wait till day 28. Any thoughts? Also I had maybe a 1/4 inch of sediment in bucket and I thought there would be more. Oak chips/raisins were in hop bag. I left about a cup or two of wine so I did not risk pulling sediment up. I notice the smell was still sweet. I have been waiting for that sweet smell to turn more into wine smell. Does this all sound about right to you? I have no issues being as patient as needed so I am not in any hurry. Just want to make sure I am on the right track. Thanks.

There are a lot of biochemical changes taking place throughout the winemaking process. Even though your wine may complete fermentation on day 12 (as many of mine have) it is still well worthwhile to delay the stabilize step until at least day 20, or in your case day 28 for the EP kit.

When you transfer the must from the bucket to the carboy, I would recommend transferring all the liquid. Any sediment that is transferred will remain behind at the next racking, for the most part.

As far as your wine's smell goes, you might be getting some CO2 odor at this stage. An ultra high end kit like the EP can take quite awhile to develop a nice nose. For that matter, it could take a couple of years before it even tastes pleasing. Patience...

One note on extended bulk aging. You know your sulfites protect your wine from oxidation/spoilage by consuming dissolved oxygen. As this process goes on over time, the levels of the "free" sulfites, which are the protecting part of the sulfites, decrease. This process of decreasing free sulfites is more pronounced in carboys than bottled wine. You can test for FSO2 levels with a sort of Chemistry set called an A/O test kit. I got one for $100. Or you can just add some KMeta periodically. Problem here is you might end up with too much sulfite in the wine. Or you can bottle between 2 and 3 months from pitching yeast.

I hope that isn't too much information. Certainly some points I raise are debatable, but that is my $.02

 

[Gekko4321]

Thanks Jim for the advice. I think bulk aging makes alot of sense. I am not sure if I should bulk age 6 months or a year though. Your thoughts? I also think cold stablilizing would be a good strategy. Does one cold stabilize at the end of bulk age cycle or beginning? Also when one degasses, one adds sulfite. So when do you add the first KMeta-immediately, 3 months out, 6 months? Thanks again.

 

[Gekko4321]

So I am still in secondary ferment stage with a week to go to degas. With the leaking wine kit I received, I still worry about the issue of spoilage. The wine has been settling and now the top is empty of bubbles. I am noticing a faint skim of something on top though. It is hazy and I hate to say it but makes me think of mold type spores. Is this normal or should I be concerned?

 

[ibglowin]

Protein ring more than likely.

Smell it, taste it (if it passes the smell test obviously....)