Maple Wine - suggestions appreciated

[ChuckD]

I pitched the yeast late Sunday night (D47) and added the first dose of Fermaid-O last night. I ended up looking at a few more calculators and decided on four additions of 7.8 mg each. The ferment is not real active but the room temp is only 66 F.

I forgot about further adjusting the pH until after I pitched the yeast so it looks like I’ll be waiting until fermentation is complete.

Question: when should I pitch the EC1118? Given the high OG, I don’t trust the D47 to ferment it dry.

 

[ChuckD]

I hit 1/3 SG today so I added the last nutrient addition and poured it into a 6 gallon carboy. The color is a wonderful dark brown and it still has a pleasant maple flavor… very Smokey too. But of course it was boiled down in a pan on a wood fired cooker.

Yesterday I adjusted the pH down to 3.80. I’ll leave it there until fermentation is complete. I still haven’t pitched the EC1118. I was thinking of waiting until I hit 1.020 or so.

 

[Ohio Bob]

I still haven’t pitched the EC1118. I was thinking of waiting until I hit 1.020 or so.

I would think that’s a safe thing to do, probably add your must to the 1118 starter in increments.

 

[ChuckD]

8 days on and the wine is only down to 1.060. This is probably the slowest fermentation I’ve seen.

At this point I’m done adding nutrients according to the TONSA protocol. Should I have it under airlock now? Or is it too early? Should I still be stirring to add more oxygen?

 

[BigDaveK]

Stirring can help to release CO2. Too much in suspension can lead to a stuck fermentation. Also, I think it's still early and yeast still needs some oxygen for various metabolic processes.

I recently had a banana in primary, very thick, stirring was minimal help. I poured it between buckets a couple times and it took off like gangbusters.

 

[ChuckD]

This is the slowest ferment I’ve ever seen. I’m three weeks from inoculation (D47) and still only at 1.040.

I made an overnight starter with EC1118 then racked it back into a bucket this morning and dumped the yeast. I’m going to stir it a few times to see if I can kick the fermentation into gear. Hopefully I can put it back in the carboy in a few days.

 

[ChuckD]

I checked Sg today and It’s down to 1.020. It’s been back in the carboy for a few days now and the airlock is still pretty active.

@Rice_Guy The maple flavor is much reduced and you’re not kidding about Smokey notes. It smells like the inside of my smoker! I’m actually hoping it mellows a little. It might be a little flat too. Should I wait until it’s done fermenting (perhaps by Memorial day at this rate) and degas before trying to reduce the pH further?

 

[Rice_Guy]

A starting pH of 4.02 increases the infection risk. I encourage you to get it down below 3.5 simply to improve shelf life/ make meta work better. (my country wine goal is 3.2 to 3.3 at the primary) ,,, As far as “flat” taste, you can always add more acid or add a finishing tannin when making bottling decisions. (tannin amplifies acid notes)

CO2, question since getting a few check valves I have changed my standard operating procedure to intentionally let gas in the carboy till I am ready to bottle. If a carboy is over nine months and clear enough to bottle I will switch to a check valve and pull a -20 inch Hg vacuum > let the headspace boil off CO2 which should keep it anaerobic. ,,,, (If I was in the degas early family I would have argon in the house to fill the head space.)

 

[winemaker81]

@ChuckD, adjusting the pH down will affect the flavor. I agree with @Rice_Guy -- at this time the pH is too high. I'd add enough acid to drop the pH to ~3.7, give it a week, and taste test it. You can add more later, but the wine will be in a stable zone, acid-wise.

 

[BigDaveK]

A higher pH wine also needs more free SO2.

 

[ChuckD]

Thursday night I added 15g of tartaric. Tested the pH today and it was 3.80 so I added another 16 grams. I needed some topping-up juice so I took the rest of the old syrup my dad gave me (a big box of jars) and boiled that down a little then re-bottled.

More than 9 quarts! I diluted some 50:50 with distilled water for topping up. I’ll check the pH again in a few days. Oh and the sg is down to 1.014… 28 days now!

 

[ChuckD]

I really need to get set up for testing TA. I can’t believe how difficult it is to get the pH down with this one. 58g of acid blend in two stages then 31g of tartaric in two stages (so far). Every time I add acid I check after 24 hours and the pH will have dropped a tenth or two. A few days later it seems to creep back up a little.

I don’t think acid adjustments were this difficult with the beet wine.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I really need to get set up for testing TA.

You have a pH meter so you are basically ready to test titratable acidity. To be lazy there is 0.1 and 0.2 N standardized alkali available here, Oshkosh I thought had 0.2N ,,, making a standardized in the QA lab was easy but another step. Add a syringe (from pharmacy/ for kids meds) that you can read to 0.1 ml and you are ready to go.

In part because I am curious what yours tastes like if you mail 100 ml over I’ll test TA for you. (an airline liquor bottle)

 

[ChuckD]

In part because I am curious what yours tastes like if you mail 100 ml over I’ll test TA for you. (an airline liquor bottle)

I ordered some reagents. But I’ll still send you a sample when fermentation is done. Maple wine is a new one and a second opinion would be great.

 

[jfuel]

I have made maple wine several times. RiceGuy actually has a bottle of mine. We just happen to be at a wine competition yesterday in the Madison area. This bottle took home a blue ribbon from our peers.

Things I can tell you. 1- I don’t do a lot of testing for ph do I don’t know that one.

2- I do remember it being a slow fermentation. 6 weeks or so.

3- tasting notes. The nose is gonna be maple syrup. It has to fill the room. This one does. Taste. I used a pecan wood I toasted myself to ‘oak’ it. I might have over dons the wood. It’s pretty woodsy but it’s maple syrup. It comes from trees. Best flavor profile I can give you is it’s a lot like a cognac. Personally I like it but feel this is an acquired taste novelty wine.

If you’re ever heading to Madison look me up I can gift you a bottle.

 

[ChuckD]

@Rice_Guy
I dug around in my tub-O-used-winemaking stuff and found some 0.2N reagent so I ran the maple wine TA. I used 9.5ml in a 10ml sample to reach a pH of 8.20.

So the TA is 14.25 g/L … or .142%? does that sound right? PH was 3.74 and it is not too sharp at all. When it’s degassed I would say it will be acceptable.

Sg is now at 1.018 and it’s still fizzing away. Flavor is a hint of maple and smokey.

 

[Rice_Guy]

A few thoughts on maple wine; one eats with their eyes and nose before they eat with their mouth.
@jfuel has a product with intense maple/ Carmel/ sugar aromatic notes. Rinsing a 100 ml plastic bottle with 5 ml and dumping this into 16 oz of lemony breakfast tea, the maple notes dominate the tea at a pleasing rounding out flavors level. The maple is interesting in that it contributes a five minute long sort of smoky flavor notes. I really like the lemon notes blended with this maple wine. I can see in fall that at the 1/4 to 1 cup per five gallons level I am going to make a petite pearl (red grape) with a hint of maple syrup. Maple at threshold level will also be an interesting addition to mulberry/ lemon blend and is a natural with the tannic cider apples.

The contest blue ribbon maple wine’s numbers: pH 4.27/ TA 0.305% (volume basis)/ sp.grav. 1.018. (@fuel entered it as 1.017).
Looking at maple syrup in 2018; my product (not a sugar maple) had pH 5.55/ TA 0.03% and a neighbors syrup (from sugar maple trees) pH 5.93/ TA 0.03%.

Talking with @jfuel his target this year was to make a product that was like sipping on maple syrup pancakes. I can see that what we come out with is a result of what we build into the wine recipe. , , , , The prior years maple syrup wine with dominant smoky notes/ less sugar might be good with BBQ ribs or other grilled flavors. , , , , What is your product target? ,, wine is basically cooking. , , , FYI, If you come down on April 15 or 14 you could volunteer to prep/ sample this and more by being a steward for state fair jurging. I find I learn a lot in contests.

 

[ChuckD]

A few thoughts on maple wine; one eats with their eyes and nose before they eat with their mouth.
@jfuel has a product with intense maple/ Carmel/ sugar aromatic notes. Rinsing a 100 ml plastic bottle with 5 ml and dumping this into 16 oz of lemony breakfast tea, the maple notes dominate the tea at a pleasing rounding out flavors level. The maple is interesting in that it contributes a five minute long sort of smoky flavor notes. I really like the lemon notes blended with this maple wine. I can see in fall that at the 1/4 to 1 cup per five gallons level I am going to make a petite pearl (red grape) with a hint of maple syrup. Maple at threshold level will also be an interesting addition to mulberry/ lemon blend and is a natural with the tannic cider apples.

The contest blue ribbon maple wine’s numbers: pH 4.27/ TA 0.305% (volume basis)/ sp.grav. 1.018. (@fuel entered it as 1.017).
Looking at maple syrup in 2018; my product (not a sugar maple) had pH 5.55/ TA 0.03% and a neighbors syrup (from sugar maple trees) pH 5.93/ TA 0.03%.

Talking with @jfuel his target this year was to make a product that was like sipping on maple syrup pancakes. I can see that what we come out with is a result of what we build into the wine recipe. , , , , The prior years maple syrup wine with dominant smoky notes/ less sugar might be good with BBQ ribs or other grilled flavors. , , , , What is your product target? ,, wine is basically cooking. , , , FYI, If you come down on April 15 or 14 you could volunteer to prep/ sample this and more by being a steward for state fair jurging. I find I learn a lot in contests.

I’m not looking for sweet maple syrup flavor. I tend to like off dry or semi sweet (although many commercial wines labeled semi sweet I would consider to be sweet).

It’s a bit too sweet now but otherwise tastes pretty good to me. Not too acidic and just a hint of maple flavor. The smokiness is interesting. I may buy some liquid tannin to do a little bench testing to decide if I want to oak it. I’m thinking it could be good because it needs a longer “finish”, but would be easy to overdo.

With a higher pH and such a long fermentation should I be adding k-meta now? The wine is producing C02 and airlock is still bubbling regularly.

Also, for that TA I measured… I think I interpreted that wrong. Wouldn’t that be 1.42%? that seems high. do the reagents go bad? The bottle was half full and at least three years old. As I said, even with the dissolved CO2 it doesn’t taste overly acidic.

 

[Rice_Guy]

First sweetness, US wine sales prefer a table sweet, say from 1.002 to 1.008. The more acid in a juice/ beverage, the more sweetness it can balance against. If you are adding tannin this works on the same taste receptors as acid, but on a lab bench basis 1 gram of acid is similar to 0.01 gram tannin.

A guideline for where to balance TA on wine;
after club contest this year I collected eight first place wines which are the red triangles
View attachment 81200
The sample set "cloud" is primarily commercial wines, with some collected in the vinters club and here on WineMakingTalk
NOTE: TA is one of several quality traits which a first place wine has as absence of flavor defect, appropriate aroma for the variety and clarity , , , etc.

The liquid tannins I have tested aren’t the best flavor. I suggest looking at finishing tannins off the Scott labs handbook.

Sodium hydroxide will go bad if it is exposed to air/ CO2 gets absorbed and it loses strength. For home use I wouldn’t worry about making three years of carbonates in a capped bottle. The linear function has quite a lot of slop/ error in it since I didn’t plot in variables as tannin anl unusually low pH are multipliers and high percentage alcohol reduce the taste effect. ,,,, and this is people so personal preferences also jump in. ,,, In waste water where cheese plant effluent might change the hydrology of a lake we need accuracy/ the DNR slaps our hand.

 

[ChuckD]

First sweetness, US wine sales prefer a table sweet, say from 1.002 to 1.008. The more acid in a juice/ beverage, the more sweetness it can balance against. If you are adding tannin this works on the same taste receptors as acid, but on a lab bench basis 1 gram of acid is similar to 0.01 gram tannin.

The liquid tannins I have tested aren’t the best flavor. I suggest looking at finishing tannins off the Scott labs handbook.

Sodium hydroxide will go bad if it is exposed to air/ CO2 gets absorbed and it loses strength. For home use I wouldn’t worry about making three years of carbonates in a capped bottle. The linear function has quite a lot of slop/ error in it since I didn’t plot in variables as tannin anl unusually low pH are multipliers and high percentage alcohol reduce the taste effect. ,,,, and this is people so personal preferences also jump in. ,,, In waste water where cheese plant effluent might change the hydrology of a lake we need accuracy/ the DNR slaps our hand.

So my reading of your post is that the TA of 1.4% I measured is realistic… it’s just balanced (for now at least) by the high Sg?

According to your attached graph a TA of 1.4% is quite high. Yet my pH is still on the high end for good stability. I get that TA and pH don’t track in a linear fashion but I’m still confused about how you can have a high TA and a high pH.

At this point I’m going to stop messing with it until fermentation is done. Hopefully I haven’t screwed it up too much.