Mini Hybrid Barrels?

[Ty520]

Deos anyone have any experience with any of those mini hybrid barrels (stainless body/wood heads) for home wine aging from companies like Bad Motivator or Fusion Barrel Works?

they claim its the most accurate way to mimic a full size barrel at the home scale?

 

[Ohio Bob]

To be honest, I’d never heard of such a thing. But it’s really intriguing. I could imagine disassembling the barrel for storage and assembling as needed. Also you could probably get replacement heads to bring the barrel back to “new” status. I’m seriously thinking about it.

 

[ChuckD]

To be honest, I’d never heard of such a thing. But it’s really intriguing. I could imagine disassembling the barrel for storage and assembling as needed. Also you could probably get replacement heads to bring the barrel back to “new” status. I’m seriously thinking about it.

I looked and the head (only one) is press fit in the barrels… It looks like the barrel rim may be rolled inward to hold the head. I’d want to make sure it could be removed and replaced DIY style. If it could, making a new one should be simple

 

[winemaker81]

they claim its the most accurate way to mimic a full size barrel at the home scale?

With only one head (or even two), the full evaporation effect of a barrel will not be present. There will be some, but the amount of oak surface area will be less than 20% of a regular barrel of the same size.

 

[Ohio Bob]

Diffusion is also a function of the thickness of the material. So in theory you could tune the total diffusion to the same as a barrel by changing the thickness of the head.

 

[winemaker81]

Diffusion is also a function of the thickness of the material. So in theory you could tune the total diffusion to the same as a barrel by changing the thickness of the head.

What you are saying is correct, but it may not be feasible.

I did a sample calculation using sample figures for a 15 gallon barrel. The numbers listed sound reasonable based upon my barrels, so I used them: The interior dimensions would be 22" long, 16" middle diameter, and 13" end diameter.

Using the formula for the surface area of a closed cylinder [ πdH + 2(πr2) ] and these values:

H: 22
d: 14.5 <--- average of the middle and end diameters
r: 6.5 <--- radius of end diameter
PI: 3.141592654

The barrel is not a cylinder and sizes vary as they're hand-made, so I figured an average value for the diameter is reasonable.

Surface area in square inches:
barrel sides: 1,002.2
each head: 132.7
Total area: 1,267.6

Each head is 10.5% of the total surface area, so combined they're 21%.

Is it feasible to make the wood thin enough to provide enough diffusion? How many tests need to be conducted, and for how long each?

Staves are typically 1" thick. If the heads are made thin enough, is there a potential for breakage or too much seepage?

FYI on the formula -- I remembered the area of a circle, but had to look up the surface area of a cylinder.

• πdH: surface area of the sides of a cylinder
• 2(πr2): Surface area of two circles (heads)

 

[ChuckD]

What you are saying is correct, but it may not be feasible.

I did a sample calculation using sample figures for a 15 gallon barrel. The numbers listed sound reasonable based upon my barrels, so I used them: The interior dimensions would be 22" long, 16" middle diameter, and 13" end diameter.

Using the formula for the surface area of a closed cylinder [ πdH + 2(πr2) ] and these values:

H: 22
d: 14.5 <--- average of the middle and end diameters
r: 6.5 <--- radius of end diameter
PI: 3.141592654

The barrel is not a cylinder and sizes vary as they're hand-made, so I figured an average value for the diameter is reasonable.

Surface area in square inches:
barrel sides: 1,002.2
each head: 132.7
Total area: 1,267.6

Each head is 10.5% of the total surface area, so combined they're 21%.

Is it feasible to make the wood thin enough to provide enough diffusion? How many tests need to be conducted, and for how long each?

Staves are typically 1" thick. If the heads are made thin enough, is there a potential for breakage or too much seepage?

FYI on the formula -- I remembered the area of a circle, but had to look up the surface area of a cylinder.

• πdH: surface area of the sides of a cylinder
• 2(πr2): Surface area of two circles (heads)

They claim mimicking a full size barrel so I think you need to compare the surface area on a volume basis… a full size barrel vs a 5 gallon barrel.

 

[winemaker81]

They claim mimicking a full size barrel so I think you need to compare the surface area on a volume basis… a full size barrel vs a 5 gallon barrel.

That still doesn't make sense.

The smaller the barrel, the greater the surface area to volume ratio, which is why wine can stay in a new 60 gallon barrel for years whereas it's months or weeks in a smaller barrel. But the ratio of the heads surface vs. the overall interior surface area is not all that different.

If you have size values on 60 gallon barrels we can plug it into the equations I used to determine if there is a difference. I suspect the ratios will be similar.

 

[ChuckD]

A standard barrel (59 gallon) has about 51sq inches of surface area per gallon of wine. The two gallon barrel has a head diameter of 8 inches so the area is 50 square inches. the ratio is 25square inches per gallon. If the six gallon has a 14” diameter head the area is 154 square inches, or 26 square inches per gallon. So both would be about half that of the full size barrel.

ETA: the evaporation rate should be 1/2 that of a full size barrel. if they made them with two wooden heads the evaporation rate would be equal.

 

[Garagista]

A standard barrel (59 gallon) has about 51sq inches of surface area per gallon of wine. The two gallon barrel has a head diameter of 8 inches so the area is 50 square inches. the ratio is 25square inches per gallon. If the six gallon has a 14” diameter head the area is 154 square inches, or 26 square inches per gallon. So both would be about half that of the full size barrel.

ETA: the evaporation rate should be 1/2 that of a full size barrel. if they made them with two wooden heads the evaporation rate would be equal.

Nice work!

 

[ChuckD]

I actually like the idea, But I want two wood ends held on my a band clamp so they could be easily replaced by someone with modest woodworking skill. They would be super easy to clean and you could even replace one head at a time depending on your oak preference.

 

[winemaker81]

A standard barrel (59 gallon) has about 51sq inches of surface area per gallon of wine. The two gallon barrel has a head diameter of 8 inches so the area is 50 square inches. the ratio is 25square inches per gallon. If the six gallon has a 14” diameter head the area is 154 square inches, or 26 square inches per gallon. So both would be about half that of the full size barrel.

ETA: the evaporation rate should be 1/2 that of a full size barrel. if they made them with two wooden heads the evaporation rate would be equal.

You're right -- I wasn't taking barrel size into consideration. It makes sense that this may work for small format barrels, but not for large ones.

 

[ChuckD]

You're right -- I wasn't taking barrel size into consideration. It makes sense that this may work for small format barrels, but not for large ones.

I’m still going over replaceable head options and different clamping options. The barrels shown on the websites appear to have the heads pressed into place with a wax sealant. I would want something more secure. I imagine a pressed head letting loose and popping out… water/wine is heavy and the pressures are high with barrels above a few gallons.

 

[Rice_Guy]

But I want two wood ends held on my a band clamp so they could be easily replaced by someone with modest woodworking skill

However someone who builds half timber should not claim modest wood skills.

I read the post with sealing wax and wonder about starting from the other direction. Volrath has standard sizes of stainless restaurant stock pots that have a curled rim. You are mainly looking for a clamp for a pot (and directions for a CNC machine). Beer towers are another direction since they already have threaded fittings for probes.

Ah for the old days when I would walk across the street and ask the company shop with a quick hand drawing.

 

[ChuckD]

However someone who builds half timber should not claim modest wood skills.

I read the post with sealing wax and wonder about starting from the other direction. Volrath has standard sizes of stainless restaurant equipment that has a curled rim. You are mainly looking for a clamp (and directions for a CNC machine). Beer towers are another direction since they already have threaded fittings for probes.

Ah for the old days when I would walk across the street and ask the company shop with a quick hand drawing.

Machining tools and skills would certainly help. I’d be further ahead just learning cooperage skills and making traditional barrels .

 

[Brant]

Sounds like an interesting concept. I'd need to hear about some first hand experiences before considering it. I still think I'd sooner buy a Flextank as they seem to have a good track record.

Edit... but if you're looking for something small they might be a good option. I believe the smallest Flextank is 15 gals.

 

[Garagista]

I went to the Bad Motivator web site and they have a step by step set of directions on how you can make your own hybrid barrel. Very cool.