Minnesota grapevines near evergreen trees

[SeniorHobby]

Hello,
I am from Central Minnesota and am thinking about planting a few grape vines just for my own use. My best location for these vines that gets optimum sun would be on the South side of a row of evergreen trees. We have heavy clay soil with about eighteen inches of black soil over the top of this. This area also has the best location for good air movement to prevent an environment which could be to wet. Would the high acidity that the evergreens add to the soil be detrimental to raising grapes? Also, we are out in a very windy area. With our harsh climate and extreme winds, would a grape plant be able to survive this climate?
Thanks!
Senior Hobby

 

[Ohio Bob]

Check out your agricultural extension. They will have far better advice than us out-of-staters. I think I remember some excellent hybrids have come out of Minnesota, especially bred for cold tolerance.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Check out your agricultural extension. They will have far better advice than us out-of-staters. I think I remember some excellent hybrids have come out of Minnesota, especially bred for cold tolerance.

Thanks OhioBob!

 

[Jerry Barbian]

You will need to have your soil tested at a lab. It's important to determine any deficiencies and to establish a baseline.

 

[SeniorHobby]

You will need to have your soil tested at a lab. It's important to determine any deficiencies and to establish a baseline.

Thanks Jerry
I didn't even think of that, but it makes sense.

 

[ChuckD]

Would the high acidity that the evergreens add to the soil be detrimental to raising grapes?

The effect of the evergreens is typically limited to directly under the trees where needles accumulate and decompose. If your soil is basic by nature the effect will be limited to the top few inches of soil under the trees. But yes, get the soil tested. The UM Extension office can help. And they have an excellent grape growing program there.

The UM and Tom Plocher have developed grapes that will survive -35 F!

 

[hounddawg]

as @Ohio Bob and others have stated your agricultural extension , where i live, they do the lab work,
hum, what's funny is i live near the Mississippi, giant boats cruise it, I'm 150 miles one way from it, when younger i went to Minnesota, clean up to where i waded the Mississippi with out getting my shins wet, had a log over it if you wanted to stay dry. in Colorado IN PEPLO i could throw a rock over the Arkansas river, and 200 miles on up in the mountains i waded the Arkansas,
Dawg,

 

[sour_grapes]

as @Ohio Bob and others have stated your agricultural extension , where i live, they do the lab work,
hum, what's funny is i live near the Mississippi, giant boats cruise it, I'm 150 miles one way from it, when younger i went to Minnesota, clean up to where i waded the Mississippi with out getting my shins wet, had a log over it if you wanted to stay dry. in Colorado IN PEPLO i could throw a rock over the Arkansas river, and 200 miles on up in the mountains i waded the Arkansas,
Dawg,

That is pretty cool that you had that experience with two major rivers!

From the Indigo Girls (at the 0:50 mark):

And the Mississippi's mighty
But it starts in Minnesota
At a place that you could walk across
With five steps down

 

[SeniorHobby]

The effect of the evergreens is typically limited to directly under the trees where needles accumulate and decompose. If your soil is basic by nature the effect will be limited to the top few inches of soil under the trees. But yes, get the soil tested. The UM Extension office can help. And they have an excellent grape growing program there.

The UM and Tom Plocher have developed grapes that will survive -35 F!

Thanks Chuck! Sounds promising.

 

[SeniorHobby]

as @Ohio Bob and others have stated your agricultural extension , where i live, they do the lab work,
hum, what's funny is i live near the Mississippi, giant boats cruise it, I'm 150 miles one way from it, when younger i went to Minnesota, clean up to where i waded the Mississippi with out getting my shins wet, had a log over it if you wanted to stay dry. in Colorado IN PEPLO i could throw a rock over the Arkansas river, and 200 miles on up in the mountains i waded the Arkansas,
Dawg,

Hard to believe that such a large river could actually have such humble beginnings! And much cleaner at the beginning than at the end I might say!

 

[swv]

I live in south central Minnesota, and have about 60 vines. I agree that the evergreens probably won't have much effect for acidity as long as they are not right next to the vines. But if they are north of the vines the wind block is a plus although most of MN wind comes from the west (insert Wisconsin joke). If they are near enough to the vines to have the snow fence effect build around the vines, it may add some insulation. Just make sure to pick varieties suited to the location. Depending on what you want, from my experience, Frontenac (all variances), Valiant, Worden, Crimson Pearl have worked out the best. St Croix is good but seems to be the birds favorite. Elvira is also a good producer but needs to be a blend for wine. I mostly do reds but have a row of Itasca, Front Blanc that seem to have survived several winters well and will hopefully have a good crop this year.

 

[swv]

If you really have 18" of black soil over clay, it doesn't seem like this area has been tilled for row crops before, but you may want to dig to 3 x 3 feet and mix the soil/clay when planting to break the hard pack layer between tillage and subsoil. Drainage has been my biggest problem and breaking the hard pack layer between tillage and subsoil will help. The vines that I had a 3 x 3 trench dug before planting have done MUCH better than those that I dug by hand to a 18" depth.

 

[Jovimaple]

That is pretty cool that you had that experience with two major rivers!

From the Indigo Girls (at the 0:50 mark):

Somewhere I think I have a picture of me crossing the Mississippi at Itasca, like the song says!

 

[SeniorHobby]

I live in south central Minnesota, and have about 60 vines. I agree that the evergreens probably won't have much effect for acidity as long as they are not right next to the vines. But if they are north of the vines the wind block is a plus although most of MN wind comes from the west (insert Wisconsin joke). If they are near enough to the vines to have the snow fence effect build around the vines, it may add some insulation. Just make sure to pick varieties suited to the location. Depending on what you want, from my experience, Frontenac (all variances), Valiant, Worden, Crimson Pearl have worked out the best. St Croix is good but seems to be the birds favorite. Elvira is also a good producer but needs to be a blend for wine. I mostly do reds but have a row of Itasca, Front Blanc that seem to have survived several winters well and will hopefully have a good crop this year.

Thanks swv! Its good to know that varieties survive the Minnesota harsh winters! Sounds like you have a lot of plants. Are you anywhere near the Willmar area? I would like to get a Central MN wine club going.

 

[SeniorHobby]

If you really have 18" of black soil over clay, it doesn't seem like this area has been tilled for row crops before, but you may want to dig to 3 x 3 feet and mix the soil/clay when planting to break the hard pack layer between tillage and subsoil. Drainage has been my biggest problem and breaking the hard pack layer between tillage and subsoil will help. The vines that I had a 3 x 3 trench dug before planting have done MUCH better than those that I dug by hand to a 18" depth.

You are right, this area hasn't been tilled, is part of a lawn / wind break area. I have a question on the drainage comment. Would you say that the plants do not do well with wet soil for a length of time? Depending on the year, it can be quite wet at times. Let's put it this way, when it is July and everyones lawns are burning up I can dig down in my garden no more than a few inches and still make a ball of moist dirt.

 

[BigH]

There are very few perfect vineyard locations. Your location doesn't sound too terrible. As a general rule, the effects of a tree are confined to the area beneath its canopy. Although pine needles have a reputation for acidity, I learned that intentionally using them to acidify your soil rarely works. In my case, I wanted to plant blueberries. My research showed that I needed something significantly more potent than pine needles.

If it was true and they can't acidify enough to make blueberries happy, then they shouldn't be able to acidify so much that they make grapes unhappy. But a soil test will be the ultimate judge.

Two other concerns:
1. The trees will give birds a place to hide when you are trying to keep them away during harvest
2. Even though you are south of them, there is a chance that they could block the morning sunrise in the Northeast. Try to stay far enough away from them to prevent this.

H

 

[Bossbaby]

I just bottled up some Frontenac blanc that I picked last fall here in southern wisconsin, I believe this variety was developed in Minnesota/Ontario, I would recommend this grape if you are into a nice fruity,tart white wine with a very interesting acidity. I'm more into Reds but this one has my attention for a great summer time refreshment.

 

[swv]

You are right, this area hasn't been tilled, is part of a lawn / wind break area. I have a question on the drainage comment. Would you say that the plants do not do well with wet soil for a length of time? Depending on the year, it can be quite wet at times. Let's put it this way, when it is July and everyones lawns are burning up I can dig down in my garden no more than a few inches and still make a ball of moist dirt.

Grapes definitely like 'dry feet' as they say. I have a corner of my vineyard that is wet all summer when there is normal rain fall. It does not do well at all those years. Last year with little rainfall, it did OK but the rest of the vines did much better. This was a row that I did not have dug out 3'x3' before planting. The row right next to it that was dug before planting does just fine with normal rain fall.
I am located between New Ulm and Mankato so a ways south of Willmar.

 

[SeniorHobby]

I just bottled up some Frontenac blanc that I picked last fall here in southern wisconsin, I believe this variety was developed in Minnesota/Ontario, I would recommend this grape if you are into a nice fruity,tart white wine with a very interesting acidity. I'm more into Reds but this one has my attention for a great summer time refreshment.

Thanks Bossbaby! Sounds like a winner.

 

[SeniorHobby]

There are very few perfect vineyard locations. Your location doesn't sound too terrible. As a general rule, the effects of a tree are confined to the area beneath its canopy. Although pine needles have a reputation for acidity, I learned that intentionally using the to acidify your soil rarely works. In my case, I wanted to plant blueberries. My research showed that I needed something significantly more potent than pine needles.

If it was true and they can't acidify enough to make blueberries happy, then they shouldn't be able to acidify so much that they make grapes unhappy. But a soil test will be the ultimate judge.

Two other concerns:
1. The trees will give birds a place to hide when you are trying to keep them away during harvest
2. Even though you are south of them, there is a chance that they could block the morning sunrise in the Northeast. Try to stay far enough away from them to prevent this.

H

Interesting. I have heard talk about birds and that you want to keep them out so the droppings don't become part of the wine harvest. I will have to do some thinking yet. I also have a couple of blueberry plants that I am trying to limp along. This summer will be my 3rd year. Not growing too tall from the first two years. Sounds like I need a soil additive to make them do better.