MLF and Juice Buckets

[mainshipfred]

Thank you. I keep reading twice a week. If by any chance after the MLF is completed and the wine is on the flat side, how can I revive it a little with acid and which kind? I assume it would be Tartaric, am I correct?

Yes, it is tartaric. Please remember there are no magic numbers with regard to the final pH. You may want to shoot for 3.55-3.65 but the final pH is strictly dependent on what you find the most enjoyable. The way I do it is pour 3 glasses of somewhat equal amounts and add different amounts of acid to each. Then taste and see which one you think you like and measure the pH. Then only add half that amount. Let it set for a few days to a week and try it again or do the previous procedure over. This is just how I do it and I'm sure others do it differently.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Yes, it is tartaric. Please remember there are no magic numbers with regard to the final pH. You may want to shoot for 3.55-3.65 but the final pH is strictly dependent on what you find the most enjoyable. The way I do it is pour 3 glasses of somewhat equal amounts and add different amounts of acid to each. Then taste and see which one you think you like and measure the pH. Then only add half that amount. Let it set for a few days to a week and try it again or do the previous procedure over. This is just how I do it and I'm sure others do it differently.

Thank you for the advice. I will try that method if need be. I hope I won't have to add anything when the MLF is complete.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Yes, it is tartaric. Please remember there are no magic numbers with regard to the final pH. You may want to shoot for 3.55-3.65 but the final pH is strictly dependent on what you find the most enjoyable. The way I do it is pour 3 glasses of somewhat equal amounts and add different amounts of acid to each. Then taste and see which one you think you like and measure the pH. Then only add half that amount. Let it set for a few days to a week and try it again or do the previous procedure over. This is just how I do it and I'm sure others do it differently.

I also have another question. Co-inoculation. I usually do open fermentation of juice in the bucket and when it's done I rack it to carboys. If I want to do a co-inoculation 24 hours after pitching the yeast into the open buckts, how will the next step, racking into carboys, affect the MLF? basically what I'm asking is when the AF is done, by racking the wine to carboys while in MLF will have any bad effect on the MLF. Or co-inoculation should be done under airlock from the very beginning?

 

[mainshipfred]

I also have another question. Co-inoculation. I usually do open fermentation of juice in the bucket and when it's done I rack it to carboys. If I want to do a co-inoculation 24 hours after pitching the yeast into the open buckts, how will the next step, racking into carboys, affect the MLF? basically what I'm asking is when the AF is done, by racking the wine to carboys while in MLF will have any bad effect on the MLF. Or co-inoculation should be done under airlock from the very beginning?

Mario, hopefully someone else will jump on this one since I don't co-inoculate. I know it's widely accepted but I'm just not yet willing to try.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Mario, hopefully someone else will jump on this one since I don't co-inoculate. I know it's widely accepted but I'm just not yet willing to try.

Thanks. I hope someone will help me out here.

 

[Johnd]

I also have another question. Co-inoculation. I usually do open fermentation of juice in the bucket and when it's done I rack it to carboys. If I want to do a co-inoculation 24 hours after pitching the yeast into the open buckts, how will the next step, racking into carboys, affect the MLF? basically what I'm asking is when the AF is done, by racking the wine to carboys while in MLF will have any bad effect on the MLF. Or co-inoculation should be done under airlock from the very beginning?

Don't change a thing in your process other than when you inoculate your MLB. Continue fermentation as normal, keep your yeast and MLB fed, press on schedule, rack off of the gross lees 2 - 3 days later, top up and put your airlock / vented bungs in place and wait. MLF should be complete a few short weeks later..............

 

[Ajmassa]

Other people may have different views but think your process is perfect and is exactly what I’m doing now: Ferment as is with a co-inoculation then adjust later to taste—-with no regard for ph & TA anymore.
They are pre-balanced but never forthcoming on specifics. My fall juice is even adjusted with different acids(citric) throwing off the numbers and drove me nuts trying to adjust pre AF.

It’s funny, I’ve never gotten Cali grapes that didn’t have a high ph. Yet my juice buckets are always lower ph and TA. But whatever they’re doing my levels seem to end up right on the money after AF & MLF.

 

[mainshipfred]

Other people may have different views but think your process is perfect and is exactly what I’m doing now: Ferment as is with a co-inoculation then adjust later to taste—-with no regard for ph & TA anymore.
They are pre-balanced but never forthcoming on specifics. My fall juice is even adjusted with different acids(citric) throwing off the numbers and drove me nuts trying to adjust pre AF.

It’s funny, I’ve never gotten Cali grapes that didn’t have a high ph. Yet my juice buckets are always lower ph and TA. But whatever they’re doing my levels seem to end up right on the money after AF & MLF.

I'm with you on the pH and TA as far as taste goes but it is important once you get your final balance to take a pH reading for the sake of sulfites.

Oh and the juice bucket dilemma, what do they put in juice buckets we'll never know.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Don't change a thing in your process other than when you inoculate your MLB. Continue fermentation as normal, keep your yeast and MLB fed, press on schedule, rack off of the gross lees 2 - 3 days later, top up and put your airlock / vented bungs in place and wait. MLF should be complete a few short weeks later..............

Thank you for your advice.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Other people may have different views but think your process is perfect and is exactly what I’m doing now: Ferment as is with a co-inoculation then adjust later to taste—-with no regard for ph & TA anymore.
They are pre-balanced but never forthcoming on specifics. My fall juice is even adjusted with different acids(citric) throwing off the numbers and drove me nuts trying to adjust pre AF.

It’s funny, I’ve never gotten Cali grapes that didn’t have a high ph. Yet my juice buckets are always lower ph and TA. But whatever they’re doing my levels seem to end up right on the money after AF & MLF.

Thank you for your advice. I want to try co-inoculation next fall, but was confused about when to rack to carboys because of the MLF. I didn't know if that would have an impact on it. I guess it doesn't.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Don't change a thing in your process other than when you inoculate your MLB. Continue fermentation as normal, keep your yeast and MLB fed, press on schedule, rack off of the gross lees 2 - 3 days later, top up and put your airlock / vented bungs in place and wait. MLF should be complete a few short weeks later..............

I only do buckets of juice. No grapes. So no pressing and no gross lees here.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Hey guys, thank you so much for your inputs. I really appreciate all your advices. I've learned a lot in these threads.

 

[Ajmassa]

I'm with you on the pH and TA as far as taste goes but it is important once you get your final balance to take a pH reading for the sake of sulfites.

Oh and the juice bucket dilemma, what do they put in juice buckets we'll never know.

Well, not exactly ‘total’ disregard for ph and TA. But you know what I mean. Trying to tweak a bucket to perfection just ended creating more aggravation for me. When leaving alone they always dial in nicely.
And yeah man. Such a secretive process. I found conflicting info, confusing terminology, blended with acid/other juice?, yeast/no yeast?. And often the people supplying answers shouldn’t have been.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Good morning, I just tested my Merlot's ph and it's at 3.44 . I don't have an acid test kit yet. I assume this range is good for acidity. It tastes fine. What do you think? And if it's in good range, does that also apply for Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Sirah?

 

[Mario Dinis]

Well, just stopped by to say that my first attempt at MLF was successful with my Merlot, Cab Sauv and Petite Sirah. Used Wyeast 4007 on the Merlot and CH16 on the others with Opti-Malo. Merlot now under fining the other two under oak. Three 6 gallons carboys. Thank you all for your advices. Learned a lot.

 

[Ajmassa]

Good morning, I just tested my Merlot's ph and it's at 3.44 . I don't have an acid test kit yet. I assume this range is good for acidity. It tastes fine. What do you think? And if it's in good range, does that also apply for Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Sirah?

I’d say yes very much so. That’s the beauty of these juice buckets- they seem to fall right into place.
For red wine 3.6 is sorta/kinda the ideal ph level for many. If it tastes good and it’s slightly less at 3.4 I just view that as extra acid protection in the wine for quality aging potential. But creeping near 4.0 is another story- requiring more so2 and attention.

 

[Mario Dinis]

I’d say yes very much so. That’s the beauty of these juice buckets- they seem to fall right into place.
For red wine 3.6 is sorta/kinda the ideal ph level for many. If it tastes good and it’s slightly less at 3.4 I just view that as extra acid protection in the wine for quality aging potential. But creeping near 4.0 is another story- requiring more so2 and attention.

Thanks AJ

 

[Mario Dinis]

I’d say yes very much so. That’s the beauty of these juice buckets- they seem to fall right into place.
For red wine 3.6 is sorta/kinda the ideal ph level for many. If it tastes good and it’s slightly less at 3.4 I just view that as extra acid protection in the wine for quality aging potential. But creeping near 4.0 is another story- requiring more so2 and attention.

I didn't check the Ph on my cab sauv and Petite Sirah because I read here somewhere that the CO2 throws off the readings and it should be done after degassing. Am I correct?

 

[Ajmassa]

I didn't check the Ph on my cab sauv and Petite Sirah because I read here somewhere that the CO2 throws off the readings and it should be done after degassing. Am I correct?

Yep. That’s what they say at least. To avoid that you can pull a sample and shake the hell out of it a bunch of times to degas first. I just racked and sulfited my wines after successful MLFs as well. Ph clocked in at 3.84 and 3.81.
But they were loaded with co2 still and I just probed right into the carboy.
Either way not concerned. Just like yours they are sulphited and topped up. In 3 or 4 months will check levels, taste, rack, dose so2 and probably add some oak.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Yep. That’s what they say at least. To avoid that you can pull a sample and shake the hell out of it a bunch of times to degas first. I just racked and sulfited my wines after successful MLFs as well. Ph clocked in at 3.84 and 3.81.
But they were loaded with co2 still and I just probed right into the carboy.
Either way not concerned. Just like yours they are sulphited and topped up. In 3 or 4 months will check levels, taste, rack, dose so2 and probably add some oak.

That's my plan as well.