My Aeration-Oxidation Free SO2 Setup

[ibglowin]

Interesting results and good to know there is an alternative reactant out there.

 

[Norske]

I haven't really looked. I have access to Con Phosphoric that I just dilute down.

Can you share more in detail how you do this?

 

[ibglowin]

A bottle of laboratory grade phosphoric acid is 85%. You only need 25% so ~30ml in 100ml gives you 100ml of 25% solution.

 

[chrisjw]

Hi,
Thought I would report final results I've had with sulfamic acid in place of 25% phosphoric. I noticed that the rate of color change in the peroxide solution was a bit slower than what I was used to when using phosphoric acid. So, I've upped it to 2% w/v sulfamic acid and it works great! No foaming problems and you can adjust the acid concentration higher even if you think it is necessary for your wine. The wines I tested tonight all worked great with the 2% sulfamic acid and 15 minutes of aeration. I recommend it. Good luck and keep testing...it's the right thing to do!
Doug

Thanks for the suggestion. Sounds like a great alternative and timely as I am running out of phosphoric acid.

Just wondering if you tested your wine with the 2% sulfamic acid as well as the 25% phosphoric acid over the 15 minutes and got the same result?

 

[doughowe]

Thanks for the suggestion. Sounds like a great alternative and timely as I am running out of phosphoric acid.

Just wondering if you tested your wine with the 2% sulfamic acid as well as the 25% phosphoric acid over the 15 minutes and got the same result?

Hi Chrisjw,
I didn't do the test the way you describe it, though it would be a good one to do at some point. I'm out of phosphoric currently. I had a wine sample I was testing though, and it was reading out at 8ppm, which was low. To do a positive control for the 2% sulfamic I repeated the test with 50ppm sulfite from KMBS spiked into the wine sample. The result was 62ppm...so it seemed to liberate all the sulfite I spiked into my wine sample. Based on that I was convinced it was working properly. I've tested several other wines with the 2% sulfamic and got expected/unsurprising results. Seems to work.
Doug

 

[SBWs]

Awhile back I was experimenting with using a solution of 10 grams of citric acid and 10 ml of distilled water. It seemed to work, but then I got a bunch of phosphoric acid and never finished the experiment.

 

[chrisjw]

I finally got around to trying out the sulfamic acid. The 2% (w/v) solution (2 grams in 100 ml of distilled water) worked great. It produced the same results as the phosphoric acid when aerating for 15 minutes, although a shorter duration, which I did not test, might be sufficient. Also just an FYI, I weighed 1/2 tsp of the crystals and it was 3.07 grams. Since only 10 ml of the sulfamic solution is used in a test, the amount of sulfamic acid crystals required for a single test is too small to measure by volume. Best to make more and store it.

Anyone have any idea how long one could store a 2% solution of sulfamic acid? I could not find any information on the shelf life of the product although I found the shelf life of a similar product to be 1 year. Any concerns here?

 

[seth8530]

Very cool thread, nothing like a little bit of science to make my evening.

 

[ibglowin]

Thanks for posting your results. This sounds like a cheaper alternative than phosphor acid. Making 250-500ml solution is definitely the way to go.

Normally prepared chemical solutions are good for a minimum of 6 months.

They should last at least 12 months if you keep then in a refrigerator.

Anyone have any idea how long one could store a 2% solution of sulfamic acid? I could not find any information on the shelf life of the product although I found the shelf life of a similar product to be 1 year. Any concerns here?

 

[doughowe]

I believe sulfamic acid can hydrolyze in aqueous solutions to ammonium bisulfate. I don't know the rate at which that may occur. The ammonium bisulfate may still be acidic enough for our purposes that this change wouldn't really matter. The sulfamic acid solid is stable. I weight out 1 gram and dissolve fresh in 50 ml for each day of testing, but I would be interested to know if anyone stores a solution and starts to suspect problems over time.

 

[sour_grapes]

I would love to try this. Unfortunately, the pictures in the original post seem to be missing for me. Is is just me, i.e., can others see the photos? Mike, if they are missing, would you consider reposting them?

Thanks,
Paul

 

[ibglowin]

I edited the URl and now they are showing up for me. Not sure what happened. Let me know if you still are not seeing them. Make sure to clear any cached web pages.

 

[cool77]

hmm, I've just tried 3 computers and pics does not show up anymore. Then tried my cell and it worked. One computer had never been on this forum. So cache is not the issue... Weird.

 

[sour_grapes]

Well, no joy so far.

First I tried 4 different browsers. No help.

Next, I viewed the html source of this post, so I could see the URL of your pictures. One was, for example, http://cdn.winemakingtalk.com/forum/images/uploads/temp/20100921_101504_DSC02744.jp However, when I tried to access that location, I got a message that the object wasn't found at the supposed position.

 

[ibglowin]

Other forum members have reported their attachments not showing up as well. I sent a PM to the site owner yesterday to have him check out whats going on.

 

[ibglowin]

The direct link to the images works. So not sure why they won't display in the post properly.

Try them:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/images/uploads/temp/20100921_100913_DSC02743.jpg

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/images/uploads/temp/20100921_101504_DSC02744.jpg

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/images/uploads/temp/20100921_101819_DSC02742.jpg

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/images/uploads/temp/20100921_102514_DSC02741.jpg

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/images/uploads/temp/20100921_103119_DSC02747.jpg

 

[sour_grapes]

Mike,

Thanks, those links worked fine. I am quite interested in setting up such a rig. To date, I have not been testing for SO2 levels, and this seems like a good way to go.

Thanks,

 

[ibglowin]

Morewine sells this as a kit for a little over $100 with enough reagents to do like 5 test. They also have very nice youtube videos that show setup, how to "zero" your SO2 titration vessel and how to tell the endpoint. For the money you can't beat this thing as its very accurate and still the defacto standard in the wine industry. It does have a small learning curve and at first takes a bit of time to setup and then cleanup but after you get some experience you get more much efficient for sure.

 

[chrisjw]

I believe sulfamic acid can hydrolyze in aqueous solutions to ammonium bisulfate. I don't know the rate at which that may occur. The ammonium bisulfate may still be acidic enough for our purposes that this change wouldn't really matter. The sulfamic acid solid is stable. I weight out 1 gram and dissolve fresh in 50 ml for each day of testing, but I would be interested to know if anyone stores a solution and starts to suspect problems over time.

I asked the manufacturer about the shelf life and this was their response:

Good day,

Thank you for contacting us.

There is no shelf life on the acid cleaner. If the sulfamic crystals have been properly stored in the original container, and as long as the crystals have not had contact with water/moisture this would be a good workable product.

 

[chrisjw]

Is there a way to quickly and easily test the strength of a sulfamic acid solution (over time) to determine shelf life (as it pertains to releasing Free SO2 in wine)?