New Vineyard Prep

[GreginND]

I have no problem with glyphosate. Just be really careful around your vines with it. Grapes are very sensitive to roundup. Do not spray on a hot day as the vapors can even affect it. Easy does it. I have been mowing my weeds but I just sprayed my vineyard carefully with roundup last week. I will get grass established this year now that my posts are in.

 

[sour_grapes]

my understanding, is that roundup goes into the stomach, changes the DNA's stomach lining to produce toxins for the body.

Gosh, and I didn't even know that DNA had stomachs, let alone stomach linings!!

 

[grapeman]

havlikn you are correct about many sprays not being used in the first year or two. They can damage the root hairs. If you have a small vineyard, hand control (pulling or hoeing weeds) is safest.

 

[RedWineforGaea]

I'm not looking to start a war or anything. I'm just here preparing for my own grape vinyard. I'll be doing it the old fashioned way, without any chemicals made by man. Have you noticed how there is a huge surge these days to find "organic" food? 20 years ago, there was no "need" to focus on "organic" as food was just "natural". But a huge portion of humanity is now concerned about original, organic food. And when you take the time to research the insidious Monsanto corporation, you have to stop and ask yourself if their products are safe or not. Just research what Monsanto has done to the farmers in India.. that doesn't sound "human focused" but a corporation focused on greed. there is a HUGE blacklash against monsanto these days. a LOT of it isn't in the US, but in the rest of the world. BUT it IS coming to the US now, and that's why there is push to put labels on "non organic foods"...

And i'm not just being afraid of "large corporations either". There is enough evidence to show that Monsanto ISN'T researching the long term affects of their productions on humans.. I'm also looking at it in a business context also. There is HIGHER demand for "organic" produce. People are now willing to pay a premium for food.. .like grapes and wine that have NOT be spreyed by pestisides. Notice all the "NON-GMO" lables that are now coming out? well. NON-GMO = "no monsanto", no "roundup". Half the planet is against Monsanto. is half the planet mad and crazy? me thinks not.

As I said, I was just giving some honest suggestions, based on the research I did. I feel bad now that I've stumbled upon people (here on the forum), who have chastized me for giving honest advice. Its a bad way to introduce yourself to a "forum community". Anyways. We all have our own choices. I wish you all the best with your vine growing!

For an example, as a concerned person interested in the viability of selling my own crop:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonenti...ngers-of-monsantos-genetically-modified-corn/

What it boils down to for me is this: is it worth it in the end to save me "time" by spraying the weeds with roundup, knowing there is a HUGE amount of protest out there against what I do? That eventually I will have to LABEL my food crop as having "biotech components"? That there may even be a risk that protesters may go to MY vines and destroy them, as they have to other crops in the past? All of this headache and drama to save me time on my weeds?

At this stage, its irrelivent if roundup is good or bad, right? If I'm selling a product to the people, then I guess I need to know what they want to buy. For me, being a "small guy" I feel its in my best interest to NOT get in bed with companies that offer insectisides. too many people seem to be against it, and well I need all the help i can get.

that's why i'm spending the time now to look for alternative natural ways to get rid of weeds. hence joining this forum. My humble appologies if I've offended anyone, but I'm just a logical, and natural type of guy. I'm the type of guy willing to spend the time knowing my plants, and knowing what they want, and finding old fashioned ways to produce my lovely vines! (me thinks I may be a bit of a tree hugging, plant loving hippie. LOL) All the best on growing your grapes. namaste!

 

[blumentopferde]

This Monsato craze is going on for quite a while in Europe. Monsato has become the synonyme for industrial farming which is regarded as bad. Its become quite popular to be against Monsato, mostly because of some NGOs and their biased studies and Green Parties who also campaign against Monsato.

This is a recent advertising of Austrias Green Party:

saying: "Monsato, go home!"

Organic is quite a hype over here and it sure is a good thing to have the choice. But over here in Europe the "green" interest groups fantasize about going 100% organic and forget
that you can't nourish 7 billion people without industrial food production...

They also forget that farmers use Roundup since decades, absorb hundreds if not thousand times the concentrations of this weedkiller than any consumer would do, and still have a normal life expectancy...

On the other hand there's really no need for a backyard farmer to use Glyphosate. Killing the weed with your hands is not a nice work but definitely feasible when you just have a few vines.

If you still want to use it, be careful about young plants and about wind drift. Even older, well established plants are sensitive to Glyphosate. I had some wind drift on my plants last year and now they look really horrible, wrinkled and dwarfed. I guess they'll survive and come back next year, but still it's probably not the best thing you can do to your vines...

PS: Not even in organic-crazy Europe there are protesters against "industrial" farms. There are about a million things you should be more concerned about..

 

[RedWineforGaea]

This Monsato craze is going on for quite a while in Europe. Monsato has become the synonyme for industrial farming which is regarded as bad. Its become quite popular to be against Monsato, mostly because of some NGOs and their biased studies and Green Parties who also campaign against Monsato.

Not ONLY because of biased? studies, or Green Parties, but also because of Monsantos distruction of local farmers, and whole farming communities in other countries. Clearly not in their own back yard..LOL!
Evidence? Here ya go:

"Every 30 minutes an Indian farmer commits suicide as a result of Monsanto’s GM crops. In the last decade more than 250,000 Indian farmers have killed themselves because of Monsanto’s costly seeds and pesticides."

I'm not even trying very hard to show you the evidence. just google it. So ask yourself, would you support a company and its products who are known to destroy whole farming communities for the sake of profit? I wouldn't. How could I trust a company like that to give me a product that wouldn't harm me? its just being logical.

forget that you can't nourish 7 billion people without industrial food production...

What makes you think that is true? Please show your facts. you might as well think that we need population control too with that logic! The way our society is now, sucking at the large corporate $$$, then yes I agree with you. But its been proven and shown that if society changes its ways by abolishing the "industrial complex" in favor of more local food pruction it can be done. How? by building small food crops inside cities, having more local farming, etc. We have been brainwashed to believe we NEED the industrial complexes, and well frankly we don't. its just the governments systematically destroying local food markets and local farmers in favor of industrial ones. That is all. Stop the Gov from doing that, and make the Gov focus on local food production and the problem is solved.

They also forget that farmers use Roundup since decades, absorb hundreds if not thousand times the concentrations of this weedkiller than any consumer would do, and still have a normal life expectancy... On the other hand there's really no need for a backyard farmer to use Glyphosate. Killing the weed with your hands is not a nice work but definitely feasible when you just have a few vines.

"The trouble is, RoundUp is very toxic. It's known to cause cancer, birth defects and infertility. In fact, some scientists are now saying it's more dangerous than DDT."

Not to sure where you get your sources from, but I don't have to search very hard to see how a lot of people are saying otherwise. Again, in the context of a business, does it make sense for you to risk future profits for the sake of a large corporation that explots humans for profit? Can you even trust them to be honest with you? This organic movement is growing BIG, and it WILL overshadow the US Market, and Monsanto WILL go down. So in essence, you're going to have to draw the line to which side you stand on. For me, and small farmers? its a no brainer: stay away from pestisides. there's been no long term studies on humans or animals. now have there?

If you still want to use it, be careful about young plants and about wind drift. Even older, well established plants are sensitive to Glyphosate. I had some wind drift on my plants last year and now they look really horrible, wrinkled and dwarfed. I guess they'll survive and come back next year, but still it's probably not the best thing you can do to your vines...

PS: Not even in organic-crazy Europe there are protesters against "industrial" farms. There are about a million things you should be more concerned about..

I agree with you on one thing. the organic-crazy people exist, and ARE coming, and ARE here in US and Cananda, and they aren't going away now are they? For a small business, your livelihood may depend on which side of the fence you're on, right?

Again, for me, I like to play things safe, and go on the fence of "old fashioned way" of doing things. That's why I came to this forum to find natural ways of removing out the weeds, and other vinyard techniques!

 

[havlikn]

Can we take the bickering about Monsanto somewhere else. I had asked a simple question.

 

[blumentopferde]

Really, I don't want to dig into that topic. It's like debating about Israel and Palestine, it's just too hysterical!

In reality there is no side you have to choose and there is no fence. Most of us are hobby winemakers, we're not going to be part of an "industrial complex" by using this or the other industrial product. If it was like that you'd have to throw away your computer immediately, otherwise it would make you a part of a much larger industrial complex.

If you don't like Monsato, don't buy it. There are other companies who offer weedkiller. If you don't like weedkiller, don't buy it either, there are other ways to get rid off weed. But don't tell us that we're criminals because we use this or that product. That's not only irrational and hysterical, it's also not a good way to introduce yourself in a forum...

 

[RedWineforGaea]

Really, I don't want to dig into that topic. It's like debating about Israel and Palestine, it's just too hysterical!

I agree with you. I guess here in Canada, with the people I know, people talk about the evils of monsanto all the time. Its well know how evil monsanto is. Sorry if I've offending anyone.

But don't tell us that we're criminals because we use this or that product. That's not only irrational and hysterical, it's also not a good way to introduce yourself in a forum...

I didn't say anyone was a criminal at all. where did you get that idea? I don't judge you for using roundup at all! its your choice. all I said was a well known truth, and that is roundup has been linked to cancer and other horrible things, and its produced by monsanto. that's all. and the poster did ask...

I'm as deeply confused as you are, with this conversation. I'm shocked that there's even a debate at all about monsanto. I'm from Canada btw. I mentioned about roundup, because I assumed (wrong for me), that the person didn't know roundup WAS made by monsanto...

Maybe where you are from, you don't know or are aware of the attrocities Monsanto has commited in other countries? I'm deeply sorry you had to know this truth from me..

Yikes! Deeply sorry. Moving forward...
(you won't hear anything else from me about monsanto!)

 

[dwhill40]

All things can be harmful unless used in moderation be it glyphosphate, alcohol, or rhetoric.

 

[havlikn]

Can I get away with 3/8" rebar for stakes or do I need 1/2". I plan to buy 20 footers and cut down to 6.5 ft each. Thanks.

Vines are still progressing quite well.

 

[grapeman]

It should work alright as long as they are tied to the wires at some point soon after installation.

 

[havlikn]

Well last week we pulled the grow tubes off the vines to harden for the winter. I was suprised to see a few ripe grape clusters inside the grow tubes. The grape vines are mostly between 4-5 ft. Today I got posts delivered so I have fun ahead of me.

An issue I ran in today was when I got to the vineyard approximately 150 vines were laying on the ground. It appears the wind may have blown over the vines because all vines were laying in a distinct direction. I am shocked at the resilience of the vines as none snapped and I was able to just fold them back up and attach them to the bamboo.

An issue I am looking into is the pruning for next year. I know many places say to prune back to the ground, but what happens when I have 4-5 ft of growth? Should I go back a certain distance?

 

[grapeman]

The wind often keeps blowing them over once they are out of the grow tubes. You will need the trellis in place, wires up and the bamboo attached to the wire. Then the vines can be secured to the stakes and they don't blow over any more. Generally the recommendation for pruning is to prune back to about 3 buds in the spring. The vines then grow back nice and strong and will give you a thicker trunk. If you leave the thin trunk there from this years growth, the buds grow from it and the new growth can be two to three times as thick as the trunk. Sometimes folks leave the old growth their for next year and sometimes it works out alright, but not always. It will be your choice.

 

[GreginND]

I agree with Grapeman. I pruned all my 2nd year vines down to a couple of buds near the ground this year and they came back stronger than ever. But I do have a lot of bull canes that I need to deal with. In some cases I had good trunks grow, in others may have to use a bull cane for a trunk. We'll see.

 

[CowboyRam]

How do you tell a bull cane from the others?

 

[GreginND]

They grow very fast, are thicker and the canes may not be round, and the internode distance is large. They tend to be weaker and sometimes don't survive for too many seasons. Thus it's best to choose healthy mid sized canes with shorter internodes for trunks and cordons.


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[havlikn]

Year one under the books, we are actively planning on our addition for year two. The outlook is to add an acre and a half consisting of Frontenac, Frontenac Gris, Marquette, St Pepin, and La Crosse. Frontenac will be the most planted with St Pepin being a close second. The challenge this year is balancing the vineyard with the first kid on the way!!

Looking forward to equipment additions, I am focusing on finding a spray for herbicides. This past year I used a backpack sprayer that worked well, but we purchased an ATV and I want to look at adding a pull behind sprayer for spraying herbicides, still using the backpack for glyphosate. The ones I have looked at from Northern Tool say they spray 14 ft widths (non-adjustable) which is way more than I want. Does anyone have recommendations for a good pull behind atv sprayer or a sprayer too mount on the ATV.

On a side note, for spraying the herbicides, I am looking into Surflan or Prowl. Both appear to be okay for newer vineyards as long as I get it on when the vines are dormant. What are your experiences with either product?

Thank you

 

[grapeman]

Some herbicides are OK for second year vines or older but there are no choices for first year vines. Most of them will kill the hair roots on the young vines and will kill or stunt them bad.

 

[havlikn]

The vines appear to have had no issues over the winter. Buds appear to be showing signs of life. It appears the temperatures decided to change from cold to 50's in the forecast. Hopefully the days can continue in the 40's for an extended time period.