Newbie Fermenting Question

[Basilhaydens]

Hello all, New winemaker here. A guy i knew used to make a really good wine from Welches concentrate. I wanted to start off by making that since it seemed like it would be fairly simple. He gave me his recipe and told me what he always did and what he used. I put everything together and its been just over 24 hours and I'm not seeing any activity at the airlock. Should i be seeing it move or see bubbles?

Cleaned and let everything soak in some ez clean solution till i was ready to use it.
Using a 6.5 Gal bucket as a primary and then will use a 6 gal glass carboy to finish with.

I used 12 cans of concentrate
5lb sugar
1 pack Blue- Red Star brand yeast.
And some tannin.

I mixed the yeast as it said on the package. 1/4 cup of water at about 100 degrees and mixed together and let it sit about 20 mins.

While the yeast was sitting I mixed together all the other ingredients and took a reading with my hydrometer. Starting SG was 1.106 which looks like its just under 14% potential ABV.
Once the 20 minutes was up i added the yeast and stirred everything up really good and put the lid on the bucket and put it on my bench. Ambient temp in my basement is around 68-70 deg. I wrapped the bucket in an old rug to help keep it a little warmer.

Not sure what i should do at this point since im not seeing any activity at the airlock. Any suggestions or help would be great. Thank you all .

 

[Fencepost]

Good summary. I am no pro, and the experts will jump in, but I can only think of a couple of things... 1) give it time, you've got all the right ingredients, it will start. 2) I would recommend that you take the lid and airlock off at this point and put a lint free towel over the top of the bucket (this is what most people do for initial stages of fermentation, I secure my towel with a small bungee), when it does get going it may over flow your air lock. And, the bucket lid will likely leak as well and you won't see it in the airlock. You can pull the towel back, periodically, and see if there is fermentation and how much bubbling is going on.. Put the airlock on it when you transfer to the carboy at SG (depending on who you talk to) 1.020 or 1.010 or 1.000....you just want to protect it from oxygen when fermentation starts to slow.
Patience is the hardest thing I have had to learn in this winemaking hobby...

 

[BernardSmith]

Hi Basilhaydens - and welcome.
There is usually a lag period between pitching the yeast and active fermentation. The yeast need to accommodate to the new environment (acidity; sugar content; temperature etc) and that can sometimes take a couple of days. In addition, if there is no significant protein in the solution (think beer wort) then you may not see froth and foam. And , if there is a large amount of headroom in the fermenter then it may take some time for that space to fill up with enough CO2 gas to create the pressure that will force movement in the liquid in the airlock.
All that said, I strongly agree with Fencepost and would argue that in wine making an airlock and narrow necked carboy is what you need for a secondary but your primary fermenter is best a bucket loosely covered with a cloth to keep out dirt and flies etc. Air is your friend during the first week or two of active fermentation. It stops being a friend when gravity drops close to 1.000 and you are ready to rack.

 

[Basilhaydens]

So here is my bucket. Took the top off to look. It sounds like its sizzling. So must be something happening right? I will look for a pillow case or something to put over it after kids go to bed and have more time.

 

[Rembee]

You are definitely fermenting from what I can see in the picture.
I agree with @Fencepost & @BernardSmith.
Preform your primary fermentation in a bucket just like your doing. Cover with a sheet, a towel or even a double layer of cheese cloth. Give it a good stir once or twice daily. Oxygen is your best friend right now until you get down to a SG of 1.020 to 1.000 range. The yeast need the O2 to multiply during the primary fermentation.
Never rely on a bucket lid, even with a gasket to seal 100%. They are not air tight.
Once your SG is < 1.000, then rack it into a glass carboy and place under an airlock as mentioned by @Fencepost.

Welcome to WMT and best of luck!

 

[Basilhaydens]

You are definitely fermenting from what I can see in the picture.
I agree with @Fencepost & @BernardSmith.
Preform your primary fermentation in a bucket just like your doing. Cover with a sheet, a towel or even a double layer of cheese cloth. Give it a good stir once or twice daily. Oxygen is your best friend right now until you get down to a SG of 1.020 to 1.000 range. The yeast need the O2 to multiply during the primary fermentation.
Never rely on a bucket lid, even with a gasket, to seal 100%. They are not air tight.
Once your SG is < 1.000, then rack it into a glass carboy and place under an airlock as mentioned by @Fencepost.

Welcome to WMT and best of luck!

Just to make sure...So i need to stir this once a day? I was under the assumption you shouldn't disturb it while fermenting.
Always use a clean sanitized spoon?
How often should i check the SG on this?

 

[Rembee]

Yes, stir it once a day while in the primary until you get down below a 1.020 SG. This will help to keep the yeast up in suspension and allow for 02 incorporation.
It's the secondary fermentation that you do not want to disturb to much in order for the lees and solids to settle out of solution.

Always sanitize any equipment coming into contact with your wine before using it.
An easy way to sanitize is to mix up a tsp of acid blend or citric acid, a 1/2 tsp of Potassium Metabisulfite and a quart of water. Pour some in a spray bottle and spray your spoon and/or other equipment prior to using it in the wine.
This sanitizer mix will stay good for 3 months.

You can check your SG as often as you like. I normally check my SG in the primary stage once a day when I stir the wine.

 

[G259]

So here is my bucket. Took the top off to look. It sounds like its sizzling. So must be something happening right? I will look for a pillow case or something to put over it after kids go to bed and have more time.

Sizzling is fermenting!

Check the SG when you stir.

Don't leave the cover off for too long (hours), but less is better.

You can leave the lid loosely on the top of the bucket, instead of a cloth.

 

[BernardSmith]

Sizzling is fermenting!

That sizzle sound and the froth and foam was why, historically, fermentation was considered a version of boiling {(yeast (zein) "to boil"}

 

[Sailor323]

Sometimes it takes a couple of days before you see vigorous activity. The only thing I'd do differently is I wouldn't stir the yeast slurry in. Yeast like company and I'd pour the slurry down along one side of the fermenter.

 

[sour_grapes]

Nothing more to add, but welcome to WMT, @Basilhaydens

 

[Basilhaydens]

SG check this afternoon....3 days in and i took a reading before i stirred. When i stir it it goes crazy and foams up and you can really hear it sizzle. So i need to take readings till this hits 1.020 or below? Ballpark time how long am i looking at? The reason i ask is im going on vacation Jun 13th for a week and a half and figured that this would be ready to transfer to secondary by then.

Also i been keeping a rubbermaid tub with a solution of the ez clean mixed up that i keep my spoons and stuff in till i can get to the store to get the stuff to make the spray bottle sanitizer rembee mentioned. This solution should keep for a few days at a time in the tub with a lid on it?

 

[Rembee]

Take a SG every day until it's at 1.020 or below. Then you can rack it into the glass carboy. Make sure that you spin the hydrometer as it sits in the wine sample to dislodge any C02 bubbles off of it. Then help it settle down and take your reading. The CO2 bubbles will distort the reading making the hydrometer sit higher in the wine.
The primary fermentation should take 5 to 7 days under ideal fermenting conditions,
ie. 72° to 75° temp., sufficient nutrients for the yeast, strong yeast population, fermentation not becoming stuck which happens for a whole host of reasons any many more reasons that prevent yeast from not fermenting that I will not go into now lol.
But, from the pictures and from what you have described about how fizzy the wine is when you stir it, I will wager that you will finish the primary fermentation within the 5 to 7 days from when you pitched the yeast.

 

[Rembee]

The EZ clean solution should last for at least a week if not longer with a lid on it.
And also, you should have your wine within the confinement of a secondary glass carboy and under an airlock prior to you leaving for your trip.

 

[winemaker81]

@Basilhaydens, I agree with @Rembee that fermentation should reach the point where you can rack into a carboy before going on vacation. You can rack at any point between 1.020 and "done" (SG < 0.997 for 3 days). Different folks have their own preferences (I target 1.010) but a SG any place in this range are perfectly fine.

If the SG is above 1.000 when you rack, leave a couple extra inches of headspace in the carboy, as the fermentation can be vigorous and blow stuff out the airlock. The extra headspace is fine for a few weeks, but at the next racking reduce the headspace to an inch or two.

Note - a lot of instructions tell you to throw the contents of the test jar away. Do not do this. Make sure everything is clean and sanitized before checking SG (including the hydrometer), and pour the wine back into the primary when done.[ I use a FermTech wine thief, which is large enough diameter to hold a hydrometer, so I can check SG very easily and with minimal air contact.]

 

[Basilhaydens]

If the SG is above 1.000 when you rack, leave a couple extra inches of headspace in the carboy, as the fermentation can be vigorous and blow stuff out the airlock. The extra headspace is fine for a few weeks, but at the next racking reduce the headspace to an inch or two.

Using a 6.5 gal plastic bucket as Primary. I was going to use a 6 gal Carboy for the secondary transfer. There would be a good bit of headroom in the carboy beings that i only have 5 gal in the bucket right? How would you reduce headspace?

 

[winemaker81]

Using a 6.5 gal plastic bucket as Primary. I was going to use a 6 gal Carboy for the secondary transfer. There would be a good bit of headroom in the carboy beings that i only have 5 gal in the bucket right? How would you reduce headspace?

For 5 gallons of wine in a 6 gallon carboy, there are 4 choices to eliminate headspace:

1) Fill with an inert material, such as glass marbles. However, it's necessary to ensure the material are really inert, e.g., glass marbles don't contain lead.

2) Fill the headspace with an inert gas, such as argon. Note that it is not possible to ensure that the argon has pushed out all the air. All are invisible gases, so there's no way to be certain.

3) Top up with a compatible wine. If you're making a Chardonnay, top up with a good tasting Chardonnay. If making Welch's frozen juice, add jug or box wine

4) Get a 5 gallon carboy.

Me? I'd do these in reverse order, with #4 as the first choice.

OR

5) size your following batches for the secondary container. If you have a 6 gallon carboy, start with an initial volume of 7 gallons and have a collection of smaller containers to hold the overflow.

Don't use a 6.5 gallon primary. Buy a 10-12 gallon Rubbermaid brute, as it will comfortably hold any small batch (5/6 gallons) you may make.

 

[Basilhaydens]

Well how about number 3 since what i started with was Welches concentrate? This was going to be my next question in a few days anyways. The guy that told me about this recipe said he threw in about 8 cans of concentrate at the end to sweeten it up. When do i need to add the other cans and i was told i needed to add some potassium sorbate to the mixture as well. Just not sure when i need to add all that.

 

[G259]

When you stir, and it foams up, that is CO2 escaping, and a good thing. Stir it more for a while, the yeast will thank you!

Add the potassium sorbate when you wine is done (<1.000 SG), then you can add the concentrate. Go slow, you can put sugar in, but you can't take it out!
And taste test along the way, everyone has their own 'sweet level', so don't put x number of cans in because yyy told you to.
In my experience, over-sweetening is too commonplace, I like drier wines.

 

[winemaker81]

Well how about number 3 since what i started with was Welches concentrate?

Do whatever works for you. Purchasing a box wine (red or white) to fill the carboy is probably the most cost effective solution for topping.

The general sequence of events is:

1) Start fermentation.

2) Rack when SG drops below 1.020. You can rack at any point between 1.020 and "done". Put in a carboy. Unless fermentation has ceased, there is no need to topup at this time.

3) If fermentation is still active (SG > 1.000), fermentation will continue until done, taking an additional 1 to 10 days (normally). Once the sediment starts to compact, rack again. Normally you'll see the sediment build up, then the layer will shrink a bit. You save more wine if you let it compact.

4) Transfer back into the carboy and topup with a compatible wine. For Welch's, I'd use a box Merlot, "Chianti", or "Burgundy". Add 1/4 tsp K-meta (potassium metabisulfite) at this time.

5) Let the wine bulk age 3 months. Unless there is a sediment buildup, you don't need to touch it.

6) Rack the wine.

7) Add potassium sorbate (typically 1/2 tsp per gallon, but read the package in case that formulation is different) and 1/4 tsp K-meta (per 5/6 gallons), stirring well. Sweeten to taste.

I fully agree with @G259, don't blindly add a sweetener. Try adding 1 can of defrosted concentrate, stir very well, then taste. Repeat until you think it needs just a bit more -- then stop.

8) Bottle. Some folks wait a few days before bottling, in case the sorbate/sulfite didn't prevent a renewed fermentation. I've never had this problem, but others have, especially if the sorbate is old.


For future reference -- start with an initial volume at least 2 quarts greater than your carboy size; 3 or 4 quarts is better. You will lose volume when racking so if you start with a greater volume, you shouldn't need topup.

Keep smaller bottles on hand to hold any additional wine. I have a collection of bottles from 125 ml to 750 ml for this purpose.

Next time, scale your recipe up -- use 15 cans concentrate and 6 lbs sugar and dilute to a total of 6-3/4 gallons. This should fit your carboy.