Non-Saccharomyces Yeast - First Impressions

[NorCal]

Here is an evaluation of non-sacc yeasts with a sugar consumed % for each strain in their test.

https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/80/5/1670.full.pdf

Thanks. Reading through this, my take away is that the reduction in alcohol would generally be in the 1-2% range when the must is started with a non-sacc and finished with a sacc yeast. In the neighborhood of 10% abv reduction, not 30% reduction I surmised because the non-sacc still is producing alcohol, albeit less efficient, before it hits its 9% abv limit.

 

[4score]

Thanks for sharing this. It’s extremely
interesting.

Could you do us a favor and elaborate a little bit regarding the timeline and fill in some blanks?
Did you let the Perlude go for over a week dropping only 4 Brix?Once the Avante took over was it back to business and finished in a few days? And Was 4 Brix the plan?
And when I’m innoculating Avante was there any extra steps involved to help it take over the ferment?

Thanks man

Here's the data:

Prelude + Avante Bin:
9/8, 10 pm, brix 26, Prelude
9/9, 10 pm, brix 25
9/10, 10 pm, brix 22.5 (3.5 brix change), added Avante
9/11, 9 am, brix 20.5
9/11, 10 pm brix 17.5
9/12, 8 am, brix 16
9/12, 3 pm, brix 14.5
9/13, 10 am, brix 11.5, Temp 87
9/14, 8 am, brix 8, Temp 84
9/15, 9 am, brix 6
9/16, 3 pm, brix 3.5
9/17, 3 pm, brix 2.5 (pressed)
9/18, 11 am, brix 2.5 (uh oh...stuck?)
9/19, 11 am, brix 1.5 (whew)
9/20, 1 pm, brix 1.0
9/21, 9 am, brix 0.5 (eventually brix negative 0.5)

Avante (only) Bin:
9/9, 12 pm, brix 26, Avante
9/10, 6 am, brix 25.5
9/10, 12 pm, brix 22.5
9/10, 10 pm, brix 19.5 Temp 86
9/11, 7 pm, brix 16
9/11, 10 pm, brix 9.5 Temp 95 (WOW)
9/12, 9 pm, brix 4.0
9/13, 10 am, brix 2.5 Temp 88
9/14, 8 am, brix 1.5
9/14, 6 PM, brix 0

In the Prelude/Avante bin, there were no extra steps when I pitched the Avante. I used the same procedure with Go Ferm and temp protocols.

 

[4score]

@4score - got another question for ya.

Since these 2 ferments had such different timelines, I would assume the Avante batch was pressed after 4-5 days. Then racked a few days later.
And the prelude/Avante batch pressed much later.
So at the time of the picture the Avante batch had time to settle and darken. The Avante batch still fresh from pressing (did you gross lees rack yet?) therefore causing the difference in color.
Is this the case— or have they both been racked off lees and had time to settle?

Good point. The Prelude/Avante batch settled for 3 or 4 days before racking. The Avante (only) batch was racked 1 day after pressing.

 

[balatonwine]

I disagree. My comment, which clearly conveyed speculation as to the possible cause, differs significantly from your characterization of it.

I offered my speculation because it appeared not to have occurred to @4score , who was actively casting about for explanations for his observation. In other words, I was trying to be useful to him.

I stand corrected. You know best what you meant to write. Mea culpa.

But, I stand by my "characterization" as to the OP's conclusions (my word, perhaps biased by this post's "advertisement tone") -- which you call "casting about for explanations". Despite nomenclature --- groping for causation of observations, before full results are in, is not yet warranted at this time. Which was my point.

 

[Stressbaby]

The first question I had was this: what is the end product of sugar metabolism if it is not ethanol?

Looking at the article it seems that the answer might be higher alcohols and ethyl acetate.

My next questions are: 1) what are the odds that we can mimic this effect using natural yeast? In other words, let natural yeast go ferment down 4 Brix, then pitch S. cerevisiae? 2) how can one get a 5g packet of Prelude?

 

[4score]

I stand corrected. You know best what you meant to write. Mea culpa.

But, I stand by my "characterization" as to the OP's conclusions (my word, perhaps biased by this post's "advertisement tone") -- which you call "casting about for explanations". Despite nomenclature --- groping for causation of observations, before full results are in, is not yet warranted at this time. Which was my point.

I didn't have "conclusions" - just observations and ideas

 

[4score]

This read so much like a sponsored ad, I almost did not continue reading the rest of the post.....

I can assure you - I am no way involved with the manufacture, sale or distribution of Prelude. This is what annoys me about these forums....when people take simple exchanges of information "sideways".

 

[mainshipfred]

I can assure you - I am no way involved with the manufacture, sale or distribution of Prelude. This is what annoys me about these forums....when people take simple exchanges of information "sideways".

I think the vast majority took it as you intended and appreciated your information.

 

[4score]

The first question I had was this: what is the end product of sugar metabolism if it is not ethanol?

Looking at the article it seems that the answer might be higher alcohols and ethyl acetate.

My next questions are: 1) what are the odds that we can mimic this effect using natural yeast? In other words, let natural yeast go ferment down 4 Brix, then pitch S. cerevisiae? 2) how can one get a 5g packet of Prelude?

Good questions. Did you see in that article that with the Chardonnay, it seems you can get too much of a good thing. I believe they mentioned the aromas turning to nail polish remover! This may be why the manufacturer says start with Non-sacc yeast only for 1 to 3 days or a few degrees drop in Brix before going with the conventional yeast.

 

[sour_grapes]

I didn't have "conclusions" - just observations and ideas

Is that why you titled your thread, "Non-Saccharomyces Yeast - First Impressions" ?

 

[cmason1957]

I can assure you - I am no way involved with the manufacture, sale or distribution of Prelude. This is what annoys me about these forums....when people take simple exchanges of information "sideways".

I am going to guess that the vast majority of us read the initial post as - I'm using this new thing, Here's what the manufacturer of this says it does and why I wanted to try using it. I suppose one thing that might have made it more obvious that those weren't your words, would have been to put them in quotes, separated out, but I think most folks who have read any of the literature recognized it for what it was. and when a post says First Impressions, I always expect lots of speculation about almost anything.

 

[CDrew]

I think experiments are great and the way to move forward in almost any endeavor. Please keep posting impressions as you go. Two stage/ 2 yeast fermentation is not something I would have otherwise considered.

I will also say that this thread was the thing that made me go and find some Avante yeast. From reading it looked like an ideal strain, your experience was good, and since I was off on Monday I drove to Lodi Wine Labs and bought 100 grams of Avante for the Pitite Sirahand Cabernet I'll get this weekend. So thanks for posting!

BTW-the very nice folks at Lodi WIne Lab did not have any smaller quantities for me and took a 500 gram pouch, weighed out 100 grams and I was on my way. Very nice operation. For anyone reading who wants to try Avante, I know they have 400 grams in bulk that I'm sure they would be happy to weigh out for you! And it was less than $15 for 100 grams.

 

[4score]

I think experiments are great and the way to move forward in almost any endeavor. Please keep posting impressions as you go. Two stage/ 2 yeast fermentation is not something I would have otherwise considered.

I will also say that this thread was the thing that made me go and find some Avante yeast. From reading it looked like an ideal strain, your experience was good, and since I was off on Monday I drove to Lodi Wine Labs and bought 100 grams of Avante for the Pitite Sirahand Cabernet I'll get this weekend. So thanks for posting!

BTW-the very nice folks at Lodi WIne Lab did not have any smaller quantities for me and took a 500 gram pouch, weighed out 100 grams and I was on my way. Very nice operation. For anyone reading who wants to try Avante, I know they have 400 grams in bulk that I'm sure they would be happy to weigh out for you! And it was less than $15 for 100 grams.

I've always had great service from Lodi Wine Labs. Plus, their pricing is very good for yearly supplies.

 

[NorCal]

I can't wait to taste the difference! I appreciate @4score's doing the research and ambition to try something new and then committing a good portion of his grapes this season to this non-traditional approach.

 

[Ajmassa]

BTW-the very nice folks at Lodi WIne Lab did not have any smaller quantities for me and took a 500 gram pouch, weighed out 100 grams and I was on my way. Very nice operation. For anyone reading who wants to try Avante, I know they have 400 grams in bulk that I'm sure they would be happy to weigh out for you! And it was less than $15 for 100 grams.

I bought it last year but didn’t use it. So Avante gets the nod this year. Another week or so for cab to come in.
And Lodi labs actually sells it online in smaller quantities. 8g, 60g and 500g amounts I believe.
I bought a bunch of 8g on sale for $1 last summer

 

[balatonwine]

I can assure you - I am no way involved with the manufacture, sale or distribution of Prelude.

Good to know. But, IMHO, then just the name of the product and source where you purchased/manufacturer for more information is enough. Let those links be your "prelude". Else, clearly state at the start you have no affiliation before going into a detailed "prelude" of your own.

Why? Because the world is awash with ads. So, right or wrong -- sadly or not, one today needs to state clearly when you are not a hidden ad for a product, or others might assume (right or wrong) you are.

This is what annoys me about these forums....when people take simple exchanges of information "sideways".

One's presentation has consequences**. And leads to others interpretations of motive, et al, even if not intentional; unless you clearly state at the start your affiliation or lack of affiliation. Which you did not (at first, only when I questioned it -- to draw out the facts by the way -- and thanks for finally clarifying that fact). So don't be annoyed ..... rather simply learn how to properly present your position when discussing a product in a direct, non-obtuse manner that clearly shows you are not affiliated with the product. If you simply do that, there will be no "sideways" issues at all. IMHO, basic forum post etiquette -- Acknowledge and move one.


** Good grief, what I write is not always clear to others and I personally accept that others may "read" it differently than I intended. I never get annoyed. Rather, I appreciate how others can "translate" my posts into something more understandable to others of a similar mind set and perspective that they have, which may be different than my mind set and perspective. And if someone else reads something in a way I did not intend, I assume by default it was my error for not being clear in my intent -- that is I don't first blame others for their interpretation, but rather try to clarify then try to move on. In other words -- not everyone will see the world the same as you do. The written word can not always convey all the subtle issues in your mind that you intended when you write something. Embrace that difference, and adapt to it -- it can make you a better writer at forums. Don't get "annoyed" by it. That just gets you annoyed, and what fun is that?

 

[balatonwine]

Is that why you titled your thread, "Non-Saccharomyces Yeast - First Impressions" ?

LOL!!!! Seriously, what is the point of that comment?

As if no one has ever had that title of a blot post, forum post, youtube video and was not paid for it, despite its relevance.... Maybe to push a product or idea using such subtle terminology. Anyone can write anything.

After all, my first impression of this post was it was an unpaid ad. Is my opinion worth less than yours?

Seriously, a title alone means nothing except for the terminally naive or those born yesterday.

Maybe you are too trusting or I am too much a sync. Who knows. C'est la vie.

But I take with all sincerity the OP's final assertion there is no affiliation. So for me, this issue is closed. No affiliation. For me that issue is answered and ended with satisfaction (after I pressed for clarification).

 

[balatonwine]

I suppose one thing that might have made it more obvious that those weren't your words, would have been to put them in quotes, separated out,

I agree. This would have been indeed a good idea.

but I think most folks who have read any of the literature recognized it for what it was

As someone who had never heard of this product, and who had not read this literature, I could not recognize it "for what it was". That is, not everyone who comes here is familiar with a product and even "first impressions" should not assume such. And "many here" (which is an opinion maybe of many frequent posters (a smaller circle than "most folks" -- and I would wager "most folks" around the planet have never heard of this product)) may not be the entire generic world viewership who may not be members or even frequent posters -- ergo -- many comments here may not represent "most folks". And it is, IMOH, best to always try to write to "most folks**, not just those "in the know". Just saying. That is, don't make a forum elitist, if one can avoid it.

** Easier said than done. We can all use some external input to help with our "most folks" writing style. Those that think otherwise may be just arrogant.

 

[4score]

Wow, who knew I could learn so much !

 

[Stressbaby]

Everyone who spends any time on this forum at all knows @4score and @NorCal are home winemaking buddies and aren't here to promote a product.

Man, some people on this forum need to lighten the **** up.

@4score, please keep us updated on this, it's the best kind of post.