Opti-Red

[Boatboy24]

As many of you may know, I was lucky enough to piggy-back on an order of grapes purchased by a local winery, thanks to @mainshipfred . The growing season was horrible here and a lot of places were forced to order from the west coast so they'd have something to sell down the road. We got some great grapes from Horse Heaven Hills and though they were a little pricey, I'm beside myself with excitement about getting them.

Anyway, Fred and I met on Monday to crush after he picked them up (also, we're lucky enough that this winery is just a few miles from both of us). While we were prepping, we talked about additives. I've always used Lallzyme at crush, followed by OptiRed just before pitching yeast - anywhere from 8-24 hours later. I was treating OptiRed as a fermentation tannin. Fred said he's never done that, because it isn't a tannin. So we mixed both in at crush. I totally trust Fred, but went back to my MoreWine manual to better understand what OptiRed is and sure enough, I misread something somewhere along the way. The MoreWine section on Tannins does not include OptiRed. That is mentioned separately, without talking of the need to wait. I think a few others here have done things similar to me WRT OptiRed, so I just wanted to pass this along.

 

[pgentile]

I recently had a bottle from Horse Heaven Hills that was fantastic. Very affordable bottle too. But I can see why the grapes would be pricey. Good luck with these. Have never used OptiRed myself.

 

[Mac60]

As many of you may know, I was lucky enough to piggy-back on an order of grapes purchased by a local winery, thanks to @mainshipfred . The growing season was horrible here and a lot of places were forced to order from the west coast so they'd have something to sell down the road. We got some great grapes from Horse Heaven Hills and though they were a little pricey, I'm beside myself with excitement about getting them.

Anyway, Fred and I met on Monday to crush after he picked them up (also, we're lucky enough that this winery is just a few miles from both of us). While we were prepping, we talked about additives. I've always used Lallzyme at crush, followed by OptiRed just before pitching yeast - anywhere from 8-24 hours later. I was treating OptiRed as a fermentation tannin. Fred said he's never done that, because it isn't a tannin. So we mixed both in at crush. I totally trust Fred, but went back to my MoreWine manual to better understand what OptiRed is and sure enough, I misread something somewhere along the way. The MoreWine section on Tannins does not include OptiRed. That is mentioned separately, without talking of the need to wait. I think a few others here have done things similar to me WRT OptiRed, so I just wanted to pass this along.

Jim,
I knew I saw something about when to add Opti-Red from MoreWine, just found it this is from their "Red Winemaking Outline" article
"2. Yeast Products/Additive Additions: Natural yeast products (such as Opti-Red and Booster Rouge) are used to increase mouthfeel, avoid browning, increase the wine's protein stability and volatile thiols, and protect fresh aromas during aging. If using these products, add immediately before or after adding yeast. For more information about additives, refer to Chapter 2.4 of the Guide to Red Winemaking."
3. Enzyme Additions: Specially formulated enzymes (such as Lallyzme-EX) are used for improved color intensity and stability, greater mouthfeel, and enhanced fruity, floral, spicy flavors in wine. If using an enzyme, add it in conjunction with the yeast, and allow the enzyme to work for 6-8 hours prior to adding tannins

So they are basically saying to add the Lallyzme with the yeast and the Opti-Red just before? They also say 4-24 hours after adding So2
Mike

 

[NorCal]

Given you received excellent grapes, do you still feel the need to add all these additives?

 

[Johnd]

Jim,
I knew I saw something about when to add Opti-Red from MoreWine, just found it this is from their "Red Winemaking Outline" article
"2. Yeast Products/Additive Additions: Natural yeast products (such as Opti-Red and Booster Rouge) are used to increase mouthfeel, avoid browning, increase the wine's protein stability and volatile thiols, and protect fresh aromas during aging. If using these products, add immediately before or after adding yeast. For more information about additives, refer to Chapter 2.4 of the Guide to Red Winemaking."
3. Enzyme Additions: Specially formulated enzymes (such as Lallyzme-EX) are used for improved color intensity and stability, greater mouthfeel, and enhanced fruity, floral, spicy flavors in wine. If using an enzyme, add it in conjunction with the yeast, and allow the enzyme to work for 6-8 hours prior to adding tannins

So they are basically saying to add the Lallyzme with the yeast and the Opti-Red just before? They also say 4-24 hours after adding So2
Mike

Straight from the manufacturers website...............

Opti-RED® is certified organic by OMRI and is a unique inactivated yeast derivative nutrient. It is the product of a specific refining process which results in a high level of polyphenol reactive cell wall polysaccharides. Opti-RED may be used either at the beginning or toward the end of red wine fermentations to obtain fuller bodied, more color stable, smooth palate wines. Lallemand has known that different yeast strains produce different levels and types of polysaccharides during their growth phase. Building on this experience, they developed Opti-RED from specific yeasts harvested at the end of their growth phase when polysaccharides are more reactive than those released during autolysis. Using Opti-RED in the must provides early polysaccharide availability for complexing with polyphenols as soon as they are released and diffused. This early complexing results in red wines with more intense color and better tannin integration. Using Opti-RED in the latter part of alcoholic fermentation allows the winemaker to shape harsh polyphenols into smoother, more approachable tannins.

To Use: Mix Opti-RED in 10 times its weight in must or water. If adding early in fermentation, distribute into the tank as it is filling or during a pump-over. Opti-RED can also be added directly to the crusher. If adding later, add during a pump-over or during tank mixings. This product is partially soluble. Stir to maintain suspension before and during addition.

Storage: Dated expiration. Store at 18°C (65°F). Once opened, keep tightly sealed and dry.


Recommended for use with: For rounded and smooth tannin reds

Recommended Dosage
EARLY ADDITION
227 g/ton 0.5 lb/ton
LATER ADDITION
20-30 g/hL 1.6-2.4 lb/1000 gal

 

[Donz]

Given you received excellent grapes, do you still feel the need to add all these additives?

I find that it gets a little out of control with so many additives. Some are needed, others not so much. Let the fruit do it's job sometimes naturally.

 

[Boatboy24]

Given you received excellent grapes, do you still feel the need to add all these additives?

It's always been part of my protocol - I can't stop.

I've been getting what I feel are very good grapes from Lanza in CA the last few years and have been adding to them as well. Some day, I'll have more money than I know what to do with and I'll make a control batch to compare.

 

[mainshipfred]

It's always been part of my protocol - I can't stop.

I've been getting what I feel are very good grapes from Lanza in CA the last few years and have been adding to them as well. Some day, I'll have more money than I know what to do with and I'll make a control batch to compare.

I have to admit I'm a creature of habit myself although always open to new ideas. Realizing there are marketing influences in reading product data I sometimes try to go a little deeper in researching the products but have to admit it very often goes over my head. This forces me to use some of the information at face value. Lallzyme which is an enzyme snd amoung other things helps break down the cell walls for a greater juice production which can't be bad and it is also done by my commercial winemaker friend. He does not use Opti Red but literature states it works well with Lallzyme, or visa versa. I also use FT Rouge the day following innoculation. Some people use oak chips during primary fermentation to reduce vegetal characteristics but I use FT Rouge because it is also provides anti oxidant qualities. I'm not saying my methods are right or wrong and have only been following this protocol the last couple seasons so it will be a year or so before I know what kind of wine it will produce. Just keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Mac60]

Fred,
Been making wine for almost 20 years, only the last few years have I learned much more about the chemistry of wine making. I was amazed how lucky I was and how resilient wine making can be, basically just pitching any yeast, for the first few years no So2 and wild yeasts, some turned out good, some ok and some not even drinkable wines. Only when some friends got involved I could not risk making bad wine, I would not be able to sleep at night if I lost a batch. So I decided to learn as much as possible to make consistently good wine. That meant keeping a record of everything I did, its has helped for the past 3 years my wine has been very consistent, small improvements each year. This year so far appears to be the biggest improvement.
For me this is the first year I used Lallzme EX-V with Opti-Red, like you the marketing literature got me with the Opti-Red, I have used Pectic Enzyme prior. But this years fermentation and grape skin maceration was better than I have ever experienced. I attribute that to the Lallzyme and Opti-Red. I did not use any tannins but did soak 2lbs of french oak chips in the primary. I will be reading more on Tannins for next year and Advante may be the yeast of choice.
Also in my opinion for the cost of these additives its not really taking a chance and not using them. It will be hard not to, if this becomes a banner vintage year.
Mike

 

[mainshipfred]

Fred,
Been making wine for almost 20 years, only the last few years have I learned much more about the chemistry of wine making. I was amazed how lucky I was and how resilient wine making can be, basically just pitching any yeast, for the first few years no So2 and wild yeasts, some turned out good, some ok and some not even drinkable wines. Only when some friends got involved I could not risk making bad wine, I would not be able to sleep at night if I lost a batch. So I decided to learn as much as possible to make consistently good wine. That meant keeping a record of everything I did, its has helped for the past 3 years my wine has been very consistent, small improvements each year. This year so far appears to be the biggest improvement.
For me this is the first year I used Lallzme EX-V with Opti-Red, like you the marketing literature got me with the Opti-Red, I have used Pectic Enzyme prior. But this years fermentation and grape skin maceration was better than I have ever experienced. I attribute that to the Lallzyme and Opti-Red. I did not use any tannins but did soak 2lbs of french oak chips in the primary. I will be reading more on Tannins for next year and Advante may be the yeast of choice.
Also in my opinion for the cost of these additives its not really taking a chance and not using them. It will be hard not to, if this becomes a banner vintage year.
Mike

In your explanation of your beginning years you sound just like @Ajmassa5983. Me, I'm still new and learning a crap ton. What also is a huge benefit for me is my relationship with a commercial winemaker. I volunteer my time for information and other perks. It's fun and sometimes hard work. Punching down 10 or so T bins wears me out. You look like you could handle it though. But your comment on additives I agree with 100%. They're inexpensive and what can they hurt. Oh, but like I said in another thread be careful with post fermentation tannin aditives.

 

[NorCal]

My approach has been to get the best grapes possible and do as little as possible. @4score and I did OptiRed our first year (2014) and the must broke down so much, it was a mess. That was the last time I’ve used additives in the ferment.

 

[mainshipfred]

My approach has been to get the best grapes possible and do as little as possible. @4score and I did OptiRed our first year (2014) and the must broke down so much, it was a mess. That was the last time I’ve used additives in the ferment.

I meant to ask you this earlier. When you were saying a mess were you referring to the skins shooting out the sides of the press. If so I had that same problem but just today I pressed lightly fluffed the skins repressed, did it again and I could have probably have pressed as hard as I wanted. Now due to the quantities you make this may not be an option.

 

[stickman]

I think @NorCal is referring to enzymes, Optired doesn't normally cause a must to break down. I use Optired as a way of providing some additional components that might be missing due to my typical use of a workhorse yeast.
While using enzymes I've had maybe one batch where the must broke down quite a bit, the skins broke up into small pieces during the primary, but I wasn't doing anything different than my typical routine. I'm not a grower so I don't know the vineyard conditions that cause the grapes to be fragile, maybe late rain, level of ripeness etc., but I know it happens. Last year I was given a tip to not bother with enzymes, and the reason given was because the grapes had significant additional hang-time. I followed the tip and still got massive color extraction on those Cabs, though I can't conclude much as I don't have an enzyme control batch for comparison.

 

[mainshipfred]

He just commented on the mess it made and I did have the same problem when pressing too hard, the skins just expolded through the slats. Easing up on the pressing by the first go round made a world of difference. My new protocol is going to be press three time and fluff in between. It's amazing how much extra juice you get while not putting too much pressure on the seeds.

 

[NorCal]

I meant to ask you this earlier. When you were saying a mess were you referring to the skins shooting out the sides of the press. If so I had that same problem but just today I pressed lightly fluffed the skins repressed, did it again and I could have probably have pressed as hard as I wanted. Now due to the quantities you make this may not be an option.

I used a 55 gallon Blichmann wineeasy vacuum press that season. The small particles clogged my screen, but the must itself was noticeably mucky. I know there is a time and a place for it, but with the fruit that I get, I don't see the need.

 

[Johnd]

In the past, I've over applied the enzyme and had a real sludgy mess at the bottom of the fermenter when scooping out the skins. Stuff didn't want to release the wine, squirted out slats and around the press plate, pretty messy situation.
This year, my cab had particularly small berries and thick skins, and I used the Lallzyme EX-V very judiciously. Was very pleased with the color extraction this year and had zero sludgy mess problems, probably my cleanest pressing to date. I, too double press, first time is a pretty hard press, but over a period of time, then the cake goes into the "fluff bin" to be completely broken up. Upon reloading the press and pressing again, was very pleased with the additional wine that was harvested. I suspect that with an additional fluff and reload, could have gotten more, but was happy with the extra 3 or so gallons obtained from the second pressing.

 

[mainshipfred]

I use the recommended rate of .1 gram/gallon of must for Lallzyme EX never used EX-V and 1 gram/gallon of Opti Red. You are supposed to wait at least 8 hours before adding tannins so I normally wait a day or two to add the FT Rouge and never really had a problem with sludge on the bottom. I also like to press over an extended period of time. It's amazing when letting it sit a few minutes how much pressure comes off the press. I only started doing the second and third press this fall after wathching a commercial bladder press operate. A little different process since it's a horizontal press. They press and roll three times which is where I got the idea.

 

[Mac60]

I use the recommended rate of .1 gram/gallon of must for Lallzyme EX never used EX-V and 1 gram/gallon of Opti Red.

Same here 1gm/gallon of must with Lallzyme EX-V same with Opti-Red, Must was not muddy, I press 2 times and go slow, I was thinking about doing it 3 times but we were running out of time, next year we may plan for it. This year was not any different that last year as far a pressing, with using both Lallzyme and Opti-red for the first time. Based on my results I will be using the same next season. We are planning to up the numbers to 200 gallons next season.
Mike

 

[Johnd]

I use the recommended rate of .1 gram/gallon of must for Lallzyme EX never used EX-V and 1 gram/gallon of Opti Red. You are supposed to wait at least 8 hours before adding tannins so I normally wait a day or two to add the FT Rouge and never really had a problem with sludge on the bottom. I also like to press over an extended period of time. It's amazing when letting it sit a few minutes how much pressure comes off the press. I only started doing the second and third press this fall after wathching a commercial bladder press operate. A little different process since it's a horizontal press. They press and roll three times which is where I got the idea.

Same here 1gm/gallon of must with Lallzyme EX-V same with Opti-Red, Must was not muddy, I press 2 times and go slow, I was thinking about doing it 3 times but we were running out of time, next year we may plan for it. This year was not any different that last year as far a pressing, with using both Lallzyme and Opti-red for the first time. Based on my results I will be using the same next season. We are planning to up the numbers to 200 gallons next season.
Mike

As noted, my use this year was judicious, and applied at the specified rate. Not so in the past, just sprinkled a little here, a little there, you know, if a little enzyme is good, more is better kind of a thing. It's just not so, really surprised at how well it works, but I definitely over did it in the past.............

 

[Mac60]

As noted, my use this year was judicious, and applied at the specified rate. Not so in the past, just sprinkled a little here, a little there, you know, if a little enzyme is good, more is better kind of a thing. It's just not so, really surprised at how well it works, but I definitely over did it in the past.............

My biggest improvement was made with the purchase of a digital scale, no a little pinch here or there.
Once I calculate the gallons of must and wine based on lbs of grapes I use the mfg recommended dose. Measuring with an accurate scale makes a BIG difference. Well at least in my mind it did and the results did confirm, although I could have also just been lucky.....