Planning for first from grapes wine

[tullamore]

i'm very lucky- i have great supplier from little Italy - we get grapes from lodi cal, el dorado county, russian river, Montsant/Spain and Australia -i also get some must and juice from Niagara on the lake - which has a great cab franc and gamay noir(similar conditions to france) Gewürztraminer,riesling ,Werner (similar condition to germany) and a great pinot gris

 

[hawkwing]

i'm very lucky- i have great supplier from little Italy - we get grapes from lodi cal, el dorado county, russian river, Montsant/Spain and Australia -i also get some must and juice from Niagara on the lake - which has a great cab franc and gamay noir(similar conditions to france) Gewürztraminer,riesling ,Werner (similar condition to germany) and a great pinot gris

You are very lucky! I'm still finding places to get them. I know of two and apparently the one has been up for sale so who knows about that. The lady I bought the press from said there was another place and she said before COVID Superstore used to bring them in. She said she'd message me the kind of grapes she recommended and I'll get the name of the other supplier. She's from Italy and told fond stories of her dad and her making wine.

 

[hawkwing]

I just discovered something called malolactic fermentation. Do any of you do this and do you recommend it?

 

[CDrew]

I just discovered something called malolactic fermentation. Do any of you do this and do you recommend it?

Yes, it's pretty standard stuff for all red wine.

Lots of good reading about when to do it (search co-inoculation), how to do it, what bacteria to use, how to tell if complete, etc.

To cut to the chase, from personal experience, CH16 never fails, and in my opinion, co-inoculation is preferred over sequential inoculation. Specifically, I add the MLF bacteria within 72 hours of starting fermentation. But read up as it's an interesting topic.

 

[hawkwing]

Need clarification. Do you mean you are making either Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot or are you making a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot? If you are making them separately, of course you would put the Cab in one fermenter and Merlot in the other. If you plan to blend them, you could ferment them separately and then blend or co-ferment them with half of the wine in each of two 20-gallon fermenters.

I am not sure what you mean by "how much solids" but I would guess you would have a little more than half the fermenter with liquid and a grape skin cap of about 2-4 inches on top, which needs to be broken up a couple times a day.

Is blending advised or does it depend on the grapes that year? Would using all one kind of grape be ok or hit and miss depending on the seasonal factors? What are good blends to consider outside of Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot?

 

[NorCal]

I do not shy away from blending, but it's sole purpose is to improve the wine. I found doing that through blind tasting is the method that have lead me toward the eventual blend that I really like, versus the one I thought I would like. Check out this thread #BLENDSRULE

 

[hawkwing]

I have a couple new questions. How much metabisulfite should be used when using whole grapes? Also does anyone do anything to assist clearing?

 

[winemaker81]

I have a couple new questions. How much metabisulfite should be used when using whole grapes?

Same as for juice, 1/4 tsp per 5 or 6 gallons. Assume 90 to 100 lbs grapes to produce that much. If you're a bit high or low, it's fine.

Also does anyone do anything to assist clearing?

It's mixed. Some folks do what kits do, adding bentonite prior to fermentation to help precipitation. Usage of fining agents post-fermentation, varies dramatically. Some do, some don't.

Before using a fining agent, understand the pros and cons. I find this article to be very useful.

https://www.awri.com.au/industry_su...ces/frequently_asked_questions/fining_agents/
Note that the Australian site doesn't discuss kieselsol and chitosan, but this site does:

https://www.winemakersdepot.com/Fining-Agents-Cheat-Sheet-W148.aspx

 

[tullamore]

agree with winemaker81
then every 4 months or so u hit Pot Meta again - and every time u rack - depending what ur aging vessels are
- all my wines are aged in oak barrels (neutral)
averaging 1- 2 years depending on the size of the barrel
- before it goes into the barrel its sits in demijohn(54 litres) for bout 9 months - 1 year - depending on when MLF is complete
this giving it some time to clear and its racked 2 times before entering the barrel -
as for kits i have no clue - never made kits -

 

[hawkwing]

Same as for juice, 1/4 tsp per 5 or 6 gallons. Assume 90 to 100 lbs grapes to produce that much. If you're a bit high or low, it's fine.


It's mixed. Some folks do what kits do, adding bentonite prior to fermentation to help precipitation. Usage of fining agents post-fermentation, varies dramatically. Some do, some don't.

Before using a fining agent, understand the pros and cons. I find this article to be very useful.

https://www.awri.com.au/industry_su...ces/frequently_asked_questions/fining_agents/
Note that the Australian site doesn't discuss kieselsol and chitosan, but this site does:

https://www.winemakersdepot.com/Fining-Agents-Cheat-Sheet-W148.aspx

I’ll have to figure out what’s red wine safe. Thanks.

 

[hawkwing]

agree with winemaker81
then every 4 months or so u hit Pot Meta again - and every time u rack - depending what ur aging vessels are
- all my wines are aged in oak barrels (neutral)
averaging 1- 2 years depending on the size of the barrel
- before it goes into the barrel its sits in demijohn(54 litres) for bout 9 months - 1 year - depending on when MLF is complete
this giving it some time to clear and its racked 2 times before entering the barrel -
as for kits i have no clue - never made kits -

I’m going to have to check if they have potassium meta locally. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it or new there were two different versions.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

This thread is like opening a can of worms a lot of opinions but as a commercial winemaker some things that I do personally for wines that will help you to make better home wines are as follows.

I highly recommend if you can afford it you get a product called Zymaflore Egide, you do not need to sulfite grapes if you use it it’s a blend of yeasts that do not ferment but colonize a must and prevent oxidation and spoilage due to microbes.

I also recommend cold soaking your grapes for 2-5 days if you can, use dry ice it will chill down the must and turn into carbon dioxide and will actually help to keep oxygen at bay during soaking and keep microbes at bay and help to soften your wine and produce a wine with better body and better integrated tannins.

I also recommend adding opti red in the proper dosage for your volume of wine to help with extracting better color. I also recommend adding yeast nutrients either Fermaid K or Nutristart from Laffort.

What we did at work is take about 20-30% of the grapes leave them whole and on the stems and put them directly into the bottom of the fermentation tanks and then crush and destem the rest of the grapes and add them on top, the grapes below will break open under the weight and during fermentation and we find that it produces a richer and bolder wine we do this with all reds but it is particularly useful with Syrah.

I recommend that no matter which yeast you use you add it to 4-6 ounces of warm water about 80-90 Fahrenheit tops with a dosage of nutrients and let it sit covered for 20-30 minutes before adding to the wine must this helps to activate the yeast and wake it up and it will multiply faster and you will notice fermentation activity much sooner than pitching dry yeast directly into wine must.

Make sure you sanitize and punch down the skins at least 2-3 times a day initially do not let them dry out or they can grow mold, as fermentation slows down decrease how often you punch down the skins.

if you have grapes that are vegetal or slightly green add some oak cubes or chips during primary fermentation this will soften the aggressive vegetal or green flavors some grapes are known for.

I highly recommend that you get a bladder press if you can afford it otherwise use a basket press but go lightly cause skins and seeds will if pressed to hard make the wine bitter and astringent so collect all free run juice and keep it separate from the pressed juice and taste it if the pressed juice is not overly tannic or bitter you can add it to the free run if it is then don’t blend it with the free run juice.

I would highly recommend using Lafforts B7 direct malolactic bacteria it’s about $20 and is very reliable and fast and can be added directly into your wine, I like that it has a higher tolerance of sulfites and ph than other strains and has a higher alcohol tolerance. You can add oak cubes during malolactic as you will get better integration of the oak and the bacteria will cling to the wood and stay in suspension versus falling to the bottom of the tank or carboy.

I’ll finish with if you want a good reliable way to sanitize equipment use Star San.

 

[hawkwing]

This thread is like opening a can of worms a lot of opinions but as a commercial winemaker some things that I do personally for wines that will help you to make better home wines are as follows.

I highly recommend if you can afford it you get a product called Zymaflore Egide, you do not need to sulfite grapes if you use it it’s a blend of yeasts that do not ferment but colonize a must and prevent oxidation and spoilage due to microbes.

I also recommend cold soaking your grapes for 2-5 days if you can, use dry ice it will chill down the must and turn into carbon dioxide and will actually help to keep oxygen at bay during soaking and keep microbes at bay and help to soften your wine and produce a wine with better body and better integrated tannins.

I also recommend adding opti red in the proper dosage for your volume of wine to help with extracting better color. I also recommend adding yeast nutrients either Fermaid K or Nutristart from Laffort.

What we did at work is take about 20-30% of the grapes leave them whole and on the stems and put them directly into the bottom of the fermentation tanks and then crush and destem the rest of the grapes and add them on top, the grapes below will break open under the weight and during fermentation and we find that it produces a richer and bolder wine we do this with all reds but it is particularly useful with Syrah.

I recommend that no matter which yeast you use you add it to 4-6 ounces of warm water about 80-90 Fahrenheit tops with a dosage of nutrients and let it sit covered for 20-30 minutes before adding to the wine must this helps to activate the yeast and wake it up and it will multiply faster and you will notice fermentation activity much sooner than pitching dry yeast directly into wine must.

Make sure you sanitize and punch down the skins at least 2-3 times a day initially do not let them dry out or they can grow mold, as fermentation slows down decrease how often you punch down the skins.

if you have grapes that are vegetal or slightly green add some oak cubes or chips during primary fermentation this will soften the aggressive vegetal or green flavors some grapes are known for.

I highly recommend that you get a bladder press if you can afford it otherwise use a basket press but go lightly cause skins and seeds will if pressed to hard make the wine butter and astringent so collect all free run juice and keep it separate from the pressed juice and taste it if the pressed juice is not overly tannic or bitter you can add it to the free run if it is then don’t blend it with the free run juice.

I would highly recommend using Lafforts B7 direct malolactic bacteria it’s about $20 and is very reliable and fast and can be added directly into your wine, I like that it has a higher tolerance of sulfites and ph than other strains and has a higher alcohol tolerance. You can add oak cubes during malolactic as you will get better integration of the oak and the bacteria will cling to the wood and stay in suspension versus falling to the bottom of the tank or carboy.

I’ll finish with if you want a good reliable way to sanitize equipment use Star San.

Lots of information. Thank you. I will have to look into these things and see if I can even get some of them. I suspect it may be challenging.

 

[crushday]

To cut to the chase, from personal experience, CH16 never fails, and in my opinion, co-inoculation is preferred over sequential inoculation. Specifically, I add the MLF bacteria within 72 hours of starting fermentation. But read up as it's an interesting topic.

I not only agree with @CDrew, I have co-inoculated red wine must with CH16 dozens of times with success. Like Drew has said, CH16 never fails. It’s amazing. Lodi Wine Labs has a great price, fast shipping and best in class customer service. They call me every time I order to confirm my order and suggest changes if something is out of stock. Amazing.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Lots of information. Thank you. I will have to look into these things and see if I can even get some of them. I suspect it may be challenging.

Some of it yeah, but most of it is available from most winemaking shops. Dry ice is at grocery stores I buy mine in bulk for cheap.

 

[hawkwing]

Some of it yeah, but most of it is available from most winemaking shops. Dry ice is at grocery stores I buy mine in bulk for cheap.

I was thinking of the Zymaflore Egide when I said it. Can’t find it yet. Not from a home brew shop anyway. Most of this will be online order and shipping. I can only get the basics here and a few strains of yeast. Beer ingredients are easier to get. We are basically kit wines and country wines. That said it’s not going to stop me if I have to use meta.

 

[hawkwing]

Are there any grapes in particular that are more consistent? What varieties are recommended? I was thinking Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and/or Zinfandel. Not sure if I could get a poor batch and need to blend or if sugar and acid adjustments will be enough to make most wines drinkable? Also I don’t know many varieties and perhaps some are more affordable but still good?

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I was thinking of the Zymaflore Egide when I said it. Can’t find it yet. Not from a home brew shop anyway. Most of this will be online order and shipping. I can only get the basics here and a few strains of yeast. Beer ingredients are easier to get. We are basically kit wines and country wines. That said it’s not going to stop me if I have to use meta.

I know 2 places online

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Are there any grapes in particular that are more consistent? What varieties are recommended? I was thinking Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and/or Zinfandel. Not sure if I could get a poor batch and need to blend or if sugar and acid adjustments will be enough to make most wines drinkable? Also I don’t know many varieties and perhaps some are more affordable but still good?

Cab is consistent, Zinfandel can be a issue as it is prone to stuck fermentations and can be a bit of a problem if you haven’t made much wine from grapes before. Merlot is a good option though.

 

[hawkwing]

I know 2 places online

Would you be so kind to share even in a PM?