Potassium sorbate and geranium odor

[Rappatuz]

I read somewhere (can't remember the source) that, when adding potassium sorbate as a stabilizing agent, a geranium odor eventually will appear. There was no "if" - just a matter of time before it happens.

For those of you who have experience using potassium sorbate, is this statement true? If so, how long does it take before the odor appears? Does it mean that potassium sorbate shouldn't be used in wines that may be stored for longer periods of time?

 

[winemaker81]

IME, proper use of sorbate (typically 1/2 tsp per gallon) produces no odor. I have never experienced the off odor, but I'm always used the 1/2 tsp dosage or less, e.g., 2 tsp in 5 gallons instead of 2-1/2 tsp.

The 1/2 tsp dosage is what the brand I use says on the package -- read your package before using, in case the formulation is different.

 

[salcoco]

using sorbate on wines that have gone through MLF can cause the off odor of geranium

 

[montanarick]

If wine is treated with Lysozyme after going thru MLF (or to prevent MLF from happening) you can safely add sorbate without concern for geranium odor

 

[Rappatuz]

If wine is treated with Lysozyme after going thru MLF (or to prevent MLF from happening) you can safely add sorbate without concern for geranium odor

Great info!

I know that MLF can be initiated by the maker or happen by chance. Is there any way of knowing if a wine has gone through a spontaneous MLF?

I guess that if you keep the free SO2 level over 10 ppm, the bacteria should die. Some wine makers (including me) don't monitor the sulfite level, and some don't use sulfites at all.

 

[Johnd]

Great info!

I know that MLF can be initiated by the maker or happen by chance. Is there any way of knowing if a wine has gone through a spontaneous MLF?

I guess that if you keep the free SO2 level over 10 ppm, the bacteria should die. Some wine makers (including me) don't monitor the sulfite level, and some don't use sulfites at all.

You can always check the malic acid content in the wine through chromotography or with a malic acid test strip to see if the malic has been consumed. In my experience, unless you are using vessels to store your wine that have previously supported MLF, the odds of it happening spontaneously aren't very favorable for most home wine makers.

Maintaining your sulfite levels at 10 ppm won't necessarily inhibit MLF, as many strains are tolerant up to 40 or 50 ppm, so a level higher than 50 ppm would be the insurance that I'm looking for. In the years I've been on this forum, I can't recall an instance of a wine going through spontaneous MLF and being ruined by geranium taste from the presence of sorbate.

Pretty simply, if you do MLF on a wine, it's a red (because those are the ones that benefit), and it could be risky to treat with sorbate in order to backsweeten, so I'd avoid that. If you haven't physically added any MLB or stored your wine in a MLB laden container, treating with sorbate, proper sulfiting, and sweetening should be a very minimal risk, if any at all.

 

[Rappatuz]

You can always check the malic acid content in the wine through chromotography or with a malic acid test strip to see if the malic has been consumed. In my experience, unless you are using vessels to store your wine that have previously supported MLF, the odds of it happening spontaneously aren't very favorable for most home wine makers.

Maintaining your sulfite levels at 10 ppm won't necessarily inhibit MLF, as many strains are tolerant up to 40 or 50 ppm, so a level higher than 50 ppm would be the insurance that I'm looking for. In the years I've been on this forum, I can't recall an instance of a wine going through spontaneous MLF and being ruined by geranium taste from the presence of sorbate.

Pretty simply, if you do MLF on a wine, it's a red (because those are the ones that benefit), and it could be risky to treat with sorbate in order to backsweeten, so I'd avoid that. If you haven't physically added any MLB or stored your wine in a MLB laden container, treating with sorbate, proper sulfiting, and sweetening should be a very minimal risk, if any at all.

Once again, this forum provides great info. Feel more confident (less scared) using potassium sorbate now.

If members using sorbate for stabilization have stored the wine for longer periods of time (say 5+ years), I'd like to hear if you experienced any geranium odor or not.

 

[winemaker81]

If members using sorbate for stabilization have stored the wine for longer periods of time (say 5+ years), I'd like to hear if you experienced any geranium odor or not.

I've had several sorbate-treated wines go 5 to 7 years with no problem. I suspect that if you're going to have a problem, you'll know about it rather quickly.

One of the wines was an Island Mist Pomegranate-Zinfandel, and I'm confident it did not go through MLF. I also have a 2 yo Malbec I lightly backsweetened with cherry juice that is also fine.

 

[montanarick]

kit wine shouldn't be subject to MLF only whole or pressed grapes

 

[Johnd]

Once again, this forum provides great info. Feel more confident (less scared) using potassium sorbate now.

If members using sorbate for stabilization have stored the wine for longer periods of time (say 5+ years), I'd like to hear if you experienced any geranium odor or not.

LOL, don’t worry about sorbate use, it‘s easy to be safe with it. I’ve got lots of wines 5+ with sorbate in them, never an issue.

 

[Rappatuz]

Grat stuff. Thanks guys!

 

[winemanden]

I've used Sorbate on sweet or semi-sweet wines, no problems providing you use SO2 as well. but if you like DRY wines you don't need it.