Pruning Grape Vines

[VinesnBines]

(Deleted)

 

[balatonwine]

A good thought was raised about vineyard managment:

You leave buds on last year's (one year old) wood. The blue cuts are on the older wood (cordon). While the older wood will push buds, the productive buds are on the one year wood.

NorCal is suggesting an "ideal" for production while I am suggesting an "ideal" for corrective pruning. Neither of us is "incorrect" or "correct". It is rather about how one wants to treat the vineyard. My suggestion is to optimize future management of the vineyard, his is to optimize next year's crop. There is no chance of an argument, since it is simply a difference in management styles (neither of which is "correct", they are simply different based on different goals).

Hope this helps.

 

[VinesnBines]

I re-thought my post, so tried to delete. You are correct, there is not a right and wrong. Mea culpa.

 

[VinesnBines]

Handy Andy needs to do major surgery on those vines.

 

[balatonwine]

I re-thought my post

You had what was basically a very good question, so I edited my post accordingly.

 

[Handy Andy]

Maybe look at my playlist on taming a neglected vineyard:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB1DU0r0xtmFMKaF-rLBL9A/playlists
Such as:



Ask me questions if you have any.

The fella in your video was spur pruning to two buds, I think! He didnt say much. Do stubs produce fruiting vines in the same year, or are they for next years grapes?????

Ive been watching a few videos, and note some practice vine pruning, selecting a couple of last years vines with approx 8 to 12 buds, to give fruit this year. Then choosing another couple of last years vines to be spurs to produce next years fruiting vines. I suspect the old fella that I bought this place from used both methods, and had his own methods aswell.

I have both 2 and 3 wires in my vineyards. The Verdelho (red) is on a three wire system, my Alverino (whites) is on a two wire system. The Trellis's are very rustic, I might reassemble them, with something a bit more solid, to stop them falling down.

Handy Andy needs to do major surgery on those vines.

Major Surgery coming up.

Verdelo is not very resistant to downy mildew.

I was looking very closely at some of the Verdelo vines yesterday, and some many of the canes are blackened due to the downy mildew last year, I was advised not to treat it until this year. Should I treat these canes in exactly the same way, as a healthy vine, and then spray to stop any infections before they get started.

 

[balatonwine]

The fella in your video was spur pruning to two buds, I think! He didnt say much.

The fella is me. And don't say much because I am the verecund vigneron...

Do stubs produce fruiting vines in the same year

Yes. But as mentioned above, more fruit on last year's canes than from buds on older wood.

Ive been watching a few videos, and note some practice vine pruning, selecting a couple of last years vines with approx 8 to 12 buds, to give fruit this year. Then choosing another couple of last years vines to be spurs to produce next years fruiting vines. I suspect the old fella that I bought this place from used both methods, had his own methods.

Selecting 8 to 12 buds is known as cane pruning. With that one often does what is known as cane and sub (one leaves one stub of two buds for next year's canes and a cane with 8 to 15 buds for this year's fruit). A different method than stub pruning. But cane pruning requires a good stout bottom wire to tie the canes to. Mostly I do cane and stub pruning when there is a good stout trellis (the videos were of a vineyard without this), except with varietals that have very stiff canes, and those I cordon stub prune always.

Here is a blog post I did many years ago on cane and stub pruning:

https://stcoemgen.com/2012/03/11/trimmin-them-vines/

I have both 2 and 3 wires in my vineyards. The Verdelho (red) is on a three wire system, my Alverino (whites) is on a two wire system. The Trellis's are very rustic, I might reassemble them, with something a bit more solid, to stop them falling down.

Quite frankly, I find that cordon are better on loose wire systems. If you can update your wire (and you may also need to update your end posts to sustain the tight wire), then cane sub and pruning is to consider.

 

[Handy Andy]

The fella is me. And don't say much because I am the verecund vigneron...



Yes. But as mentioned above, more fruit on last year's canes than from buds on older wood.



Selecting 8 to 12 buds is known as cane pruning. With that one often does what is known as cane and sub (one leaves one stub of two buds for next year's canes and a cane with 8 to 15 buds for this year's fruit). A different method than stub pruning. But cane pruning requires a good stout bottom wire to tie the canes to. Mostly I do cane and stub pruning when there is a good stout trellis (the videos were of a vineyard without this), except with varietals that have very stiff canes, and those I cordon stub prune always.

Here is a blog post I did many years ago on cane and stub pruning:

https://stcoemgen.com/2012/03/11/trimmin-them-vines/



Quite frankly, I find that cordon are better on loose wire systems. If you can update your wire (and you may also need to update your end posts to sustain the tight wire), then cane sub and pruning is to consider.

Thanks for the excellent advice, I think I understand what I need to do now.

 

[VinesnBines]

balatonwine; You have given excellent explanations!

I've noticed French and Italian vineyard owners/managers (here in Virginia) favor cane pruning. Cane pruning requires skill in choosing the renewal spur and the fruiting cane and may be more time consuming. On the other hand, spur pruning may be more desirable for certain varieties.

Switching from spur to cane is doable but takes some work.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Switching from spur to cane is doable but takes some work.

the first step is to identify how old the wood is, what I would call canes have the fruit producing bud,,, the older wood is where I look to rejuvenate an arm (cordon) with an eye to “if I clip at this bud to produce a young cane, next spring I will prune that cane for fruit and prune back more ugly older wood.”

,,, where do you want the plant next year?

 

[Obbnw]

Hi,
I would like to recommend this video series. It's long, it's slow but it kinda sinks in and gives a full picture.


Looks like a very nice patch and with a little renewal of the wines it will probably give you a bigger crop in a couple of years.
Good luck and enjoy!

Painfully slow....

But was good info. Not many videos that you can play back at 1.5 times the normal speed and still be able to understand.

1.5 speed was a little fast. 1.25 was pretty good but still a little slow. Normal speed is difficult to watch.

 

[NorCal]

Personally, I find those cuts too high. For one thing, the vertical trellis design is too short for such high cuts. And the second reason is in a neglected vineyard, I would prune more radically to bring it back into a proper pruning format, even if one gets a smaller crop that year, it will pay dividends for years afterwards.

Zooming in on your picture, for example, shows buds circled in blue. I would rather cut on the blue line.

View attachment 69938

I agree with @balatonwine, if you want to correct the errors of the past do as balatonwine instructed. If you are looking for a crop next year, my recommendation will result in more fruit next season.

 

[Handy Andy]

Painfully slow....

But was good info. Not many videos that you can play back at 1.5 times the normal speed and still be able to understand.

1.5 speed was a little fast. 1.25 was pretty good but still a little slow. Normal speed is difficult to watch.

I didnt know I could speed up a utube. At 1.75 x speed it is better

 

[Handy Andy]

I have finished my first pass pruning my vineyards and trellises, with only a couple of accidental wrong cuts YEAH.

Throughout the process I noted the previous owner appears to have used both vine pruning and spur pruning of trunks and spur pruning from cordons, mostly supported in some way via wires or trellises.

I watched a TV program last night on Spanish wine making. What caught my eye was the way the vineyards had been pruned. All the vines were free standing and the trunks looked very old and short. There were no wires or cordons in site! When I froze some of the close ups of the vines, I could see they had been spur pruned, with mostly 4 spurs from each trunk. The vines appeared to be separated by approx 4 to 6 feet (1.2 to 1.8m) and the clusters appeared to be low down on the vines, and not buried in foliage.

Is it normal to remove the upper clusters on fee standing vines and remove foliage from around the grape clusters????

What are the pros and cons of the different types of pruning???? (soil type, climate, mechanization, vine density, disease control, altitude, labor, variety, anything else)

 

[balatonwine]

I watched a TV program last night on Spanish wine making. What caught my eye was the way the vineyards had been pruned. All the vines were free standing and the trunks looked very old and short. There were no wires or cordons in site!

Probably goblet or head pruning. The most ancient method of training vines.

See for example, this list of the most common wine training methods:

https://winefolly.com/deep-dive/grape-vine-training-methods-illustration/
For example, the finest German Rieslings from Mosel use a similar type of pruning, and very tall stakes, because it is rather difficult to run wire up the steep hillsides.

When I froze some of the close ups of the vines, I could see they had been spur pruned, with mostly 4 spurs from each trunk. The vines appeared to be separated by approx 4 to 6 feet (1.2 to 1.8m) and the clusters appeared to be low down on the vines, and not buried in foliage.

Vine spacing is regional. In the USA they tend to space further apart than in Europe. There is a bit of a cross Atlantic debate about it. As for myself, I actually tested different spacing over about 7 years, and for my area, climate, soils, varietals, a spacing of about 1.2 m between vines, and 1.5 between rows was ideal for vines in rows on trellis (vertically trained) and 1 m between vines and 1.2 m between rows on head trimmed vines.

Grape vines mostly only fruit at the base of the growing cane. Normally from two to four clusters. This is normal. There is a method where one pinches off all but the bottom two clusters, as a means to improve wine yield and quality. Later in the season a cane can start to grow clusters further out on the cane and these should always be removed.

Is it normal to remove the upper clusters on fee standing vines and remove foliage from around the grape clusters????

It is done. But not required. It is done for many reasons. But should be done with understanding how it may affect the grapes. See this article, as on example:

https://grapes.extension.org/leaf-removal-on-grapevines/

What are the pros and cons of the different types of pruning???? (soil type, climate, mechanization, vine density, disease control, altitude, labor, variety, anything else)

All of the above. But also tradition and regulation may apply (in some areas, vines are required to be pruned in specific ways to get some type of certification).

 

[Rodolfo Cava Zos]

Handy Andy, look up Marco Simonit. He's practically leading a revolution in the pruning world. Basically, the bush vine training method according to his philosophy works best considering that every vine grows its own way. It's all about letting the vine move the sap within itself in the most un-constricted way. I'm finally getting my own vines this week and I'm going to go with this method (the old world Spanish method). I'm getting a certified Tempranillo clone from Spain. (I am incredibly happy about this)

 

[Handy Andy]

Handy Andy, look up Marco Simonit. He's practically leading a revolution in the pruning world. Basically, the bush vine training method according to his philosophy works best considering that every vine grows its own way. It's all about letting the vine move the sap within itself in the most un-constricted way. I'm finally getting my own vines this week and I'm going to go with this method (the old world Spanish method). I'm getting a certified Tempranillo clone from Spain. (I am incredibly happy about this)

The Sultan of Sap, (there are lots of ways to skin a cat prune a vine )
https://www.winespectator.com/artic...d two fixes for,one fruit-bearing cane, which" his rise has come from his stunningly simple observation: that severe pruning used in modern, high-density vineyards weakens vines by blocking the flow of their life-giving sap, thereby making them susceptible to disease and premature death. "

I think, hope I have done the right thing pruning severely this year. They have been pruned in many different ways historically, across my vineyards. Many were infected with (odio) downy mildew last year. This year as soon as I can source it, I am going to spray with a copper based fungicide, to combat the mildew before it even gets started. I am pretty sure, hope at least some of the vines have been pruned in a way that Marco Simonit approves off.

 

[balatonwine]

Marco Simonit. He's practically leading a revolution in the pruning world.

Honestly, to me he is not.

I have two degrees. In ecology and resource management. Nothing he advocates is new to me. He took some decades to learn this? I learned it in just a few course as an undergraduate. And was able to apply what I knew the first time I pruned a vine 20 years ago. Yes, of course, as an example, large cuts are a problem. But may be necessary in neglected vineyards. Tough decisions at times must be made. After which, if you understand basic biology, ecology, horticulture, etc, you will easily prune correctly. If you want to prune... One can even think outside that box: I have one vineyard with a lot of trees in and around it. Some vines I never pruned, and let them grow up the trees (I was curious to see what would happen because vines evolved with trees and it is their natural nature to vine up a tree). What I say next is anecdotal: The grape clusters I never sprayed, and yet had no disease (if one understands how most grape disease spread on vines, this was not unexpected). So to have the most healthy vines, with the least amount of vineyard work, it is to consider to plant trees in your vineyard and never prune the vines (but you have to figure out how to harvest in an economical way clusters 3 or more meters off the ground, if you are not simply making hobby wine).

IMHO, the real "problem" is few in industry listen to ecologists (i.e. science) as much as they should as they are trying to maximize yield, not plant life span (vines are easy to replace and in 10 years, the public taste in one wine may change so the vines will be replaced anyway). And so, it is not just about "pruning" but about the entire ecosystem that the vines live in, including the economic and popularistic ecosystem. Integrated agriculture for example, also a "new thing" recently, I started on day one 20 years ago in my vineyard (because... again, duh.... ecology).

Marketing and "tradition" are too ingrained in the DNA of the wine making world. So they have to wait till they can default to "philosophy" from someone who came to similar conclusions via the long term school of hard knocks? Kind of say a lot actually, as the answers were always there for those interested to look for them. But for many things in wine making, the "mysticism" of a guru too often seems to attract the most attention. Science is, I admit, often boring. But it always wins in the end, even it take time and for some is ongoing.

 

[David Violante]

I really appreciated the video series posted by @patrikthehun. Super slow, no doubt, but there’s huge benefit to that too. I’ve been watching them to really understand and internalize the whole story, not just if x then y. Very much like @balatonwine ’s perspective, with which I totally agree. This has been a really good thread, thank you. I’ve been stymied by the process of pruning and this has been very helpful. I’m nowhere near a practical / operational ‘go out there and do it’ point yet, but getting there. Thank you!

 

[we5inelgr]

Honestly, to me he is not.

I have two degrees. In ecology and resource management. Nothing he advocates is new to me. He took some decades to learn this? I learned it in just a few course as an undergraduate.
...

An excellent post, really...all your posts on this thread are very informative.

It basically boils down to what your wine goals are, assuming the grapes are grown for winemaking.

And yes, just as you learned this information 20 years ago...naturally, you learned from someone else who already knew this stuff. And so on. Nothing "revolutionary" about that.