TA issue, need advice on how to correct

[clent724]

Hi. My name is Cody and I'm in SW Pennsylvania. Last fall I made my first batch from grapes, a cab/syrah blend from California. Until that point I've only done fresh juice buckets and never balanced acid or pH and they've turned out drinkable. I want to step my game up so recently invested a lot in equipment. The cab/syrah is very sharp so I tested the TA. It is .79 and the pH is 3.60. It is currently in a 27 gallon bourbon barrel. I dosed with vp41 at the end of fermentation and did verify on a chromatography test that it completed (I'll attach a pic). After doing a lot of reading, I realize that the pH is very close to the magic number of 3.65. I'm worried that if I treat with potassium carbonate or bicarbonate it would raise the pH above 3.65 and will increase even further after cold stabilization. Should I cold stabilize first, re-test and see if it then needs carbonate or bicarbonate added? I assume I would have to cold stabilize a 2nd time after that to drop out the potassium? Also, is carbonate or bicarbonate better with acid this high?

I'm unsure what to do and surely don't want to ruin the batch. I'm a newbie but have a deep interest in winemaking. It's a great hobby and I want to make the best wine that I can. Something I'm proud to share with friends and family.

I'll be crushing 22 boxes of Lanza Barbera when they arrive down Pittsburgh, within the next week it looks like. Now that I have testing equipment I have very high hopes. Very exciting.

 

[cmason1957]

First off Welcome to WMT. I hope you enjoy your time here and contribute where and what you can. Nobody gets real upset about much, we are all just interested in helping each other make better wine.

In my opinion the chase for magic numbers leads to more failures than anything else. There are no perfect numbers. It's all about how it tastes to you.
I would certainly cold stabilize your wine, if it tastes sharp to you. That may help some. I wouldn't try to force your wine into a specific TA value, but deal with you have. It may help to add some vegetable glycerin, this can help smooth out some of that sharpness, it will take a bench test for you to decide if this is the way to go or not. And to determine the amount to add.

Also and as a side note, I'm not for sure that your MLF totally completed, there is still a spot shown in the Malic Acid part. You may want to add some extra K-Meta and perhaps a chemical called Lysozome (that I may well have misspelled horribly) for safety.

 

[clent724]

First off Welcome to WMT. I hope you enjoy your time here and contribute where and what you can. Nobody gets real upset about much, we are all just interested in helping each other make better wine.

In my opinion the chase for magic numbers leads to more failures than anything else. There are no perfect numbers. It's all about how it tastes to you.
I would certainly cold stabilize your wine, if it tastes sharp to you. That may help some. I wouldn't try to force your wine into a specific TA value, but deal with you have. It may help to add some vegetable glycerin, this can help smooth out some of that sharpness, it will take a bench test for you to decide if this is the way to go or not. And to determine the amount to add.

Also and as a side note, I'm not for sure that your MLF totally completed, there is still a spot shown in the Malic Acid part. You may want to add some extra K-Meta and perhaps a chemical called Lysozome (that I may well have misspelled horribly) for safety.

Thank you very much! After reading your reply I looked up lysozyme. My understanding is that it stops MLF as would K-meta. If iMLF is not completed I'm just wondering why either would be added?

I also would like to say that I've read so many posts on this forum over the years and tons of yours. I would be thrilled to have ½ of the winemaking knowledge you have and many many more of the members on wmt. Until then I'll keep working at it with a glass of wine beside me

 

[CDrew]

You will get a lot of advice here, but I'll offer up my opinion. I would not do anything. Your pH is perfect and your wine is only a year old. So tasting "sharp" is normal for young wine.

I would not leave it in a bourbon barrel. That's too much of a wild card and who knows what flavors you'll get from that. I make a syrah every year, and it only starts tasting good at 3 years old. So I think yours just has a long way to go before it's time to seriously get into it. But for sure, get it out of the bourbon barrel.

For this year, maybe avoid the bourbon barrel.

With regards to your Barbera-that's one of my favorites. It makes a great wine to have with food and it matures quickly. It really doesn't need much or any oak, so keep that touch very light. I would say one of my biggest learnings in the wine game, is that oak can cut both ways. Small amounts may add a desirable subtle flavor, but more can do more harm than good, so be extremely careful with it.

I used to worry more about TA than I do now. After crush, and if the pH is within range, I'll just go with it. If it's above 3.8, I'll typically add a small amount of tartaric acid like 1gm per liter of anticipated finished wine.

And don't add lysozyme yet. If your MLF isn't finished you want those bacteria alive! You will not need to ever add lysozyme to a redwine where MLF is desired. I have used lysozyme to great effect to prevent MLF in white wine and in a Rose for the same reason. But red wine doesn't need it in this circumstance.

 

[clent724]

You will get a lot of advice here, but I'll offer up my opinion. I would not do anything. Your pH is perfect and your wine is only a year old. So tasting "sharp" is normal for young wine.

I would not leave it in a bourbon barrel. That's too much of a wild card and who knows what flavors you'll get from that. I make a syrah every year, and it only starts tasting good at 3 years old. So I think yours just has a long way to go before it's time to seriously get into it. But for sure, get it out of the bourbon barrel.

For this year, maybe avoid the bourbon barrel.

With regards to your Barbera-that's one of my favorites. It makes a great wine to have with food and it matures quickly. It really doesn't need much or any oak, so keep that touch very light. I would say one of my biggest learnings in the wine game, is that oak can cut both ways. Small amounts may add a desirable subtle flavor, but more can do more harm than good, so be extremely careful with it.

I used to worry more about TA than I do now. After crush, and if the pH is within range, I'll just go with it. If it's above 3.8, I'll typically add a small amount of tartaric acid like 1gm per liter of anticipated finished wine.

And don't add lysozyme yet. If your MLF isn't finished you want those bacteria alive! You will not need to ever add lysozyme to a redwine where MLF is desired. I have used lysozyme to great effect to prevent MLF in white wine and in a Rose for the same reason. But red wine doesn't need it in this circumstance.

The bourbon barrel has been used a few times for some of the bucket wines I've made. At this point I don't think it's giving much bourbon or even oak flavor anymore. I decided to put it in there for the micro-oxygenation effects mainly. It's been in the barrel about 3 months currently. I have plans to turn it into a pub table after I remove the cab/syrah.

I really hope some of the sharpness goes away. I need to start making more wine so I'm not in a hurry. I definitely have the room! I partitioned off a 16x24 room inside of my pole building a few years ago just for winemaking. On top of the room is storage where I keep my press, crusher, ferm barrels and other junk. I absolutely love to make wine. We have no children so it keeps me busy. The grass can only be cut so many time a week

 

[wood1954]

With those numbers I would just cold stabilize it. I would get it into carboys unless you like the bourbon flavor.

 

[clent724]

With those numbers I would just cold stabilize it. I would get it into carboys unless you like the bourbon flavor.

Thank you all for the help, it's greatly appreciated. I am also making a 66% diamond/33% Fredonia blend this year for my wife. Just got back on Sarurday from a few days in Erie. I got the juice from Mobilia fruit farm this year. This was my first time there. They are very nice people to deal with and very knowledgeable.

 

[winemaker81]

I'm very cautious about using carbonate or bicarbonate, as they can impart a metallic taste. Your numbers are in a good range, and it may be that you are more sensitive than average to acid.

As Craig said, don't chase a number, go by taste. Post-fermentation I may take readings, but the numbers no longer matter. My pH meter will never drink the wine so at that point I'm no longer interested in its opinion.

Cold stabilization is the easiest (well, easy if you have refrigeration or a cold porch) method of reducing acid, although its effectiveness depends on the amount of tartrates in the wine.

Craig's suggestion of glycerin is also helpful. Take a test gallon and add half an ounce of glycerin, stir very well (it's thick and doesn't mix easily, then taste. I have added up to 1 oz/gallon to wines, although I've found that 2/3 to 3/4 oz is usually good.

Another option is to blend in a wine with a lower acid level.

 

[clent724]

I'm very cautious about using carbonate or bicarbonate, as they can impart a metallic taste. Your numbers are in a good range, and it may be that you are more sensitive than average to acid.

As Craig said, don't chase a number, go by taste. Post-fermentation I may take readings, but the numbers no longer matter. My pH meter will never drink the wine so at that point I'm no longer interested in its opinion.

Cold stabilization is the easiest (well, easy if you have refrigeration or a cold porch) method of reducing acid, although its effectiveness depends on the amount of tartrates in the wine.

Craig's suggestion of glycerin is also helpful. Take a test gallon and add half an ounce of glycerin, stir very well (it's thick and doesn't mix easily, then taste. I have added up to 1 oz/gallon to wines, although I've found that 2/3 to 3/4 oz is usually good.

Another option is to blend in a wine with a lower acid level.

Do you think potassium bitartrate should be added before cold stabilizing or just stick it in the fridge? I have 2 refrigerators that I can stick a total of 4 carboys in at a time. Also in my area the weather is helpful around December & January.

 

[winemaker81]

Do you think potassium bitartrate should be added before cold stabilizing or just stick it in the fridge? I have 2 refrigerators that I can stick a total of 4 carboys in at a time. Also in my area the weather is helpful around December & January.

When I lived in Upstate NY I simply put the carboys on my porch, which hovered between 34 and 40 F in the winter. I've heard of seeding the wine, but never bothered. Refrigerate as close to freezing as feasible for 2 weeks, then rack, although anything below 40 may do the job.

This will have the side effect of helping the wine to fully clear.

 

[clent724]

When I lived in Upstate NY I simply put the carboys on my porch, which hovered between 34 and 40 F in the winter. I've heard of seeding the wine, but never bothered. Refrigerate as close to freezing as feasible for 2 weeks, then rack, although anything below 40 may do the job.

This will have the side effect of helping the wine to fully clear.

I read that it needs racked immediately so it doesn't dissolve. Is it so sensitive that I need to rack it straight out of the fridge or can I wheel the carboys to my wine room then rack? Wondering if the movement will dissolve the crystals?

 

[winemaker81]

I read that it needs racked immediately so it doesn't dissolve. Is it so sensitive that I need to rack it straight out of the fridge or can I wheel the carboys to my wine room then rack? Wondering if the movement will dissolve the crystals?

That's what I was told many moons ago, but folks on the forum with better knowledge than I, say that once crystalized, the acid doesn't dissolve easily.

I'd not let the wine warm up, but there's no problem moving the carboys and then racking. 19-23 liters of wine is not going to warm up quickly.

 

[clent724]

That's what I was told many moons ago, but folks on the forum with better knowledge than I, say that once crystalized, the acid doesn't dissolve easily.

I'd not let the wine warm up, but there's no problem moving the carboys and then racking. 19-23 liters of wine is not going to warm up quickly.

Thank you all for the help. I surely will post an update down the road. Since I've been "lurking" I found it very frustrating when an update isn't given. I assume the reason is because there's no longer a problem and the wine has been drank but it's still nice to read the end result.

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you all for the help. I surely will post an update down the road. Since I've been "lurking" I found it very frustrating when an update isn't given. I assume the reason is because there's no longer a problem and the wine has been drank but it's still nice to read the end result.

It's also a way to build good relationships. You've been lurking for a while, so you're aware of how folks on the forum treat each other, a nice relief from the remainder of the net.

 

[keverman]

Hi. My name is Cody and I'm in SW Pennsylvania. Last fall I made my first batch from grapes, a cab/syrah blend from California. Until that point I've only done fresh juice buckets and never balanced acid or pH and they've turned out drinkable. I want to step my game up so recently invested a lot in equipment. The cab/syrah is very sharp so I tested the TA. It is .79 and the pH is 3.60. It is currently in a 27 gallon bourbon barrel. I dosed with vp41 at the end of fermentation and did verify on a chromatography test that it completed (I'll attach a pic). After doing a lot of reading, I realize that the pH is very close to the magic number of 3.65. I'm worried that if I treat with potassium carbonate or bicarbonate it would raise the pH above 3.65 and will increase even further after cold stabilization. Should I cold stabilize first, re-test and see if it then needs carbonate or bicarbonate added? I assume I would have to cold stabilize a 2nd time after that to drop out the potassium? Also, is carbonate or bicarbonate better with acid this high?

I'm unsure what to do and surely don't want to ruin the batch. I'm a newbie but have a deep interest in winemaking. It's a great hobby and I want to make the best wine that I can. Something I'm proud to share with friends and family.

I'll be crushing 22 boxes of Lanza Barbera when they arrive down Pittsburgh, within the next week it looks like. Now that I have testing equipment I have very high hopes. Very exciting.

I agree with others, that MLF is likely not quite done and I would defer on adding anything right now to adjust TA. Cold stabilization should bring you closer to .70 and your pH should drop a little. Those little drops in TA are exponential and make a big difference. I too, worried about that magic tipping point for pH once when I was around 3.62 and it was fine, dropped to 3.5 with cold stabilization. That being said it's going to taste sharp until it gets a little more age on it and pulls itself together. I created a disjointed mess of a wine my first "real grapes" attempt chasing perfect numbers and wondering why it didn't taste better. Experience has since told me all it lacked was time. Experience will help you trust the process and do less and less to it as time goes by. Enjoy your new obsession!! You now will have an abundance of things you can put on your Christmas wish list.

 

[clent724]

You now will have an abundance of things you can put on your Christmas wish list.

That's no kidding! My wife says I'm hard to shop for but I have plenty of ideas. I'll take a carboy over that pair of fuzzy slippers any day

 

[cmason1957]

I suggested the lysozyme aiming that a wine that is over a year old had already had some kmeta added, since you said you thought Mlf had completed. If that isn't the case, then let it go, it might finish.

 

[tkmorita]

Would love the update on this post . I am a fairly new winemaker, entering my 4th season and am having a similar experience as the OP.

I have a 2022 Cab Sauv (WA) that I want to bottle soon. I did an extended maceration with the intention of wanting to age this wine for quite a while, like up to 20yrs for my daughter’s bday vintage (I did a saignee and 28 days on skins before press). Current pH is 3.64, but it is on the tart/sharp side. After pulling a sample and doing some bench trials with some potassium carbonate, it tasted nice after adding 0.5 g/L, but this brings the pH to 3.83. I know higher pH is more prone to ‘spoilage’ but what does that really mean? If I brought it to that pH and bottled it it would taste great now, but would it test terrible in 20yrs?

For now, it sounds like I should probably just cold stabilize and re-taste after? I don’t have enough experience to know how age will reduce the sharpness in my wines. Based on this thread, it’s sounding like I should just cold stabilize it, bottle it, and let time work its magic? I don’t currently have a way to test TA, so hoping that’s not necessary.

 

[clent724]

Would love the update on this post . I am a fairly new winemaker, entering my 4th season and am having a similar experience as the OP.

I have a 2022 Cab Sauv (WA) that I want to bottle soon. I did an extended maceration with the intention of wanting to age this wine for quite a while, like up to 20yrs for my daughter’s bday vintage (I did a saignee and 28 days on skins before press). Current pH is 3.64, but it is on the tart/sharp side. After pulling a sample and doing some bench trials with some potassium carbonate, it tasted nice after adding 0.5 g/L, but this brings the pH to 3.83. I know higher pH is more prone to ‘spoilage’ but what does that really mean? If I brought it to that pH and bottled it it would taste great now, but would it test terrible in 20yrs?

For now, it sounds like I should probably just cold stabilize and re-taste after? I don’t have enough experience to know how age will reduce the sharpness in my wines. Based on this thread, it’s sounding like I should just cold stabilize it, bottle it, and let time work its magic? I don’t currently have a way to test TA, so hoping that’s not necessary.

I pulled the wine out of the bourbon barrel a few days after CDrew suggested. I then decided to cold stabilize it in my fridge for about a month. There was a nice layer of tartaric on the bottom but it was still sharp. I tested and the numbers were 7.8 TA and pH 3.59. I decided to do a blending trial with a known low acid wine. This wine was a rapel casa Rosa (sangiovese/cab/syrah) juice from Chile and those numbers were 5.2 and 3.50ph. For the trial I just kept mixing the two until I liked the taste and then tested again. At 6.0 the wine tasted great so I decided to blend the entire batch with the rapel casa Rosa until it was 6.0 and have been drinking it the past few weeks finally.

One thing I learned is that I will never use a bourbon barrel again. Recently I've invested in a few flextanks. I now have a 50 gallon dexter, two 30 gallon eco tanks and three 15 gallon ecotanks. I've been keeping up on so2 testing every 3 months. It's very different numbers than the same wines in glass.

 

[winemanden]

The bourbon barrel has been used a few times for some of the bucket wines I've made. At this point I don't think it's giving much bourbon or even oak flavor anymore. I decided to put it in there for the micro-oxygenation effects mainly. It's been in the barrel about 3 months currently. I have plans to turn it into a pub table after I remove the cab/syrah.

I really hope some of the sharpness goes away. I need to start making more wine so I'm not in a hurry. I definitely have the room! I partitioned off a 16x24 room inside of my pole building a few years ago just for winemaking. On top of the room is storage where I keep my press, crusher, ferm barrels and other junk. I absolutely love to make wine. We have no children so it keeps me busy. The grass can only be cut so many time a week

The one ingredient that’s missing in most recipes is Patience! Your wine needs to grow up, give it a chance!