Tannins - Know when and why to add them.

[Tess]

thanks for this thread I'v learned a lot

 

[manvsvine]

You need to add a finishing tannin at least 5 weeks before bottling to allow it to polimerise and get max benefit

But you can get away with 3 weeks in a pinch , but a little longer is better.


http://www.scottlab.com/product-132.aspx

You can also add a finishing tannin when adding wine to a neutral barrel .

 

[Deezil]

Yeah, everything I've read says about ~6 weeks for polymerization and settling

 

[sour_grapes]

You need to add a finishing tannin at least 5 weeks before bottling to allow it to polimerise and get max benefit

But you can get away with 3 weeks in a pinch , but a little longer is better.

Yeah, everything I've read says about ~6 weeks for polymerization and settling

What do you suppose is the "penalty" for adding the tannin too close to bottling? It may drop some sediment in the bottle, I am guessing?

 

[Deezil]

Basically..

I dont remember what effect that sediment plays over time though.. Not sure if it's just unappealing or will, over time, alter the characteristics of the wine..

 

[Pumpkinman]

The difference that an extra few weeks makes is really impressive to say the least, I would think that there would be sediment in the bottle and frankly, if you taste a wine only a few weeks after adding tannins, it tastes like wine and tannins, after 8 weeks or so I tasted my wine and it really "married" into the wine, as if it were the natural tannins from the wine.
I hope that makes some kind of sense.

 

[Geronimo]

The other thing to note is the method of adding a finishing tannin. Pull about 10 ounces of wine from the carboy, mix in the tannin (completely yet gently), then add it gently back to the carboy and stir well. If you intend to just plop it on the bottom and rack over it, you'll get about half the effect in my experience. Sprinkling it on top and letting it settle through would be a better choice I guess. It's like oak; it will impart itself into the wine but if yeast/sediment drops on top of it, it's pretty much wasted.

 

[sour_grapes]

Thanks for the thoughts, guys.

The difference that an extra few weeks makes is really impressive to say the least

Yeah, but my question is why those weeks are recommended to transpire while the wine is in a large container instead of while the wine is in a small container.

The other thing to note is the method of adding a finishing tannin. Pull about 10 ounces of wine from the carboy, mix in the tannin (completely yet gently), then add it gently back to the carboy and stir well.

Good! This is exactly how I have been doing it due to dumb luck, so I am glad to hear this is preferred.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Paul,
If I’m understanding correctly, you are asking why it is that it is recommended to wait 4-6 weeks from the time you make a tannin addition until the time we bottle?

To answer this, I’m going to try to get a bit deeper into the whole tannin discussion and explain tannins without too much, scientific terminology, this is a generalization:

Tannins are large molecules made up of linked sub units, the chemical make-up of the tannins is actually changed during the winemaking process, creating chains, the chains then break, not only does the chain length change, but the different chemical entities that stick to the phenolic sub units (a class of chemical compounds consisting of a hydroxyl group bonded directly to an aromatic hydrocarbon group.) also changes.

The bonds between tannin polymers are repeatedly breaking and reforming.
This is a complex, dynamic process, the various phenolic subunits of tannins are sticking to each other and other chemical components of the wine in a sequential pattern, with these bonds being broken and reformed in a temporal sequence.

To summarize, the process of converting a monomer or a mixture of monomers into a polymer is called polymerization.

So, to answer your question, we bulk age for the following reasons.

• To allow full reaction and polymerization.
  
• Some Red wines need over a year of carboy or barrel aging to mellow out the harsh tannins.
  
• Over time tannins get bigger, become insoluble, and fall out of solution, this will be seen as sediment in bottles if you decide to bottle age versus bulk aging.
  
• When adding tannins, anyone that has used tannins will agree that tannin in general do not dilute easily, another concern of mine would be the fact that individual bottles may not have the same level of tannins.
  
• One of the more important reasons to bulk age would be the ability to taste the wine and make additions that may be needed, once the wine is in the bottle and corked, it makes it difficult to make adjustments.

I hope that this helps.

 

[sour_grapes]

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to write that up. My interest in understanding this comes from my desire to strike the right (for me) balance between aging time and kit throughput with a limited number of carboys. (“The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” Carl von Clausewitz) My schedule at present has me bottle at about 3.5 months after pitching yeast. This gives about 3 months in the carboy.

I really don't see the relevance of the discussion of chemical changes. Those can occur as easily in the bottle as in the carboy (unless you think the greater accessibility to oxygen that is characteristic of a carboy is needed to promote the chemical changes in this case).

I understand that, once bottled, you cannot add any more adjuncts, so I definitely agree it is best to get the adjuncts the way you want them before bottling. I also agree that is best accomplished by allowing a lot of the aging to occur before bottling, so you can taste-test closest to the desired outcome.

Your contention about limited solubility possibly leading to bottle-to-bottle variation is interesting and may be compelling. I have been doing as Geronimo suggested and initially mixing the tannin powder very well with some wine. I think next time I do that, I will have to wait a few hours before adding to the must to see if any powders settle out in that time frame.

So, as I understand it, I would contend that the "penalties" of bottle aging vs. bulk aging are:
-some sediment
-no "do-overs."
(-jury still out on solubility)

 

[Runningwolf]

So, as I understand it, I would contend that the "penalties" of bottle aging vs. bulk aging are:
-some sediment
-no "do-overs."
(-jury still out on solubility)
__________________
Paul

Paul you pretty much summed this up but you can a do-over. I've dumped more than one batch back into the carboy. AGGGGG
The other this is with a real cork, the wine will age faster in the bottle.

 

[sour_grapes]

Thanks, Dan.

I would like note more explicitly that I was not seeking to revivify the bulk-vs-bottle-age discussion in general, which has been widely discussed. Rather, just seeking to understand the part about aging of finishing tannins.

 

[Pumpkinman]

Damn Paul, you've summed it up!
I think it is interesting, you're asking the questions that most of us have thought about, any level of clarifying a topic is great!

 

[manvsvine]

Look who's all scientific now!
Way to go ! No need to dumb it down.

In addition , waiting the 6 weeks (more is even better) allows the wine to become consistently uniform but if you don't wait you will get more sediment and more bottle variation.

 

[Pumpkinman]

I was waiting for you to post something like that...lol

 

[Matty_Kay]

Fantastic discussion and learning tool regarding tannins. I was wondering if anyone that uses or used finishing tannins also bulk aged with oak prior to the tannin addition?

Or does the use of oak and a finishing tannin create an undesirable profile? Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated!

 

[Julie]

Fantastic discussion and learning tool regarding tannins. I was wondering if anyone that uses or used finishing tannins also bulk aged with oak prior to the tannin addition?

Or does the use of oak and a finishing tannin create an undesirable profile? Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated!

great question, I am interested as well.

 

[Geronimo]

Fantastic discussion and learning tool regarding tannins. I was wondering if anyone that uses or used finishing tannins also bulk aged with oak prior to the tannin addition?

Or does the use of oak and a finishing tannin create an undesirable profile? Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated!

I've used toasted oak beans many times during bulk aging together with tannins. Most finishing tannins are oak derivatives. I haven't noticed anything bad from it.

 

[user 31015]

Interesting stuff! I know fruit wines often call for tannin, I am interested in the thoughts that this could be pointless. Is there anyone reading able to comment from experience on using (or not) tannins in their fruit wine production?

 

[Bartman]

this will create two complex, very different wines when it comes time to bottle.
Somewhere between new and old world style , the cab forward one more new and the merlot forward one a little old world but neither is 100% in either camp, kinda mid atlantic.

LOL - I like that use of 'mid-Atlantic'. Seems appropriate, though not standard usage.