This year's Crush

[David Violante]

Ha! I had squirts when pressing my Chambourcin today. I did not add peptic enzymes and the grapes didn’t hang too long. I had to wrap plastic around the press at the end of the press. It must be the nature of the grapes this year.

I have a fermenter bucket with a crack in the bottom, I think I’m going to just cut out the bottom and use the bucket around my press. Thank you @crushday for the idea from your pictures!

 

[crushday]

I have a fermenter bucket with a crack in the bottom, I think I’m going to just cut out the bottom and use the bucket around my press. Thank you @crushday for the idea from your pictures!

I celebrate your idea. I was loosing a lot of wine from the "squirt factor" and I did not want to use the internal mesh bag provided with my press. My hesitancy was around the storage, use (sanitation) and cleanup of the bag. Too much hassle...

Often, wine was squirting several feet in all directions! The fitted 55 gallon drum is perfect for my use!

 

[Cap Puncher]

Had a nice day crushing with the WVA last Monday! 400 lb of Lodi Old Vine Zin split into 3 fermentors.
-2 day cold soak. 3.5 gallons off for a rose
-Fermentor 1: Prelude+Avante +VP41 (coferment)
-Fermentor 2: Prelude+BM4X4 +VP41 (coferment)
--Fermentor 3: Native yeast ferment yeast and ML. (No additives at all- will become sacramental wine if it is good)

The ferment was so vigorous it held up my punch down tool with complete ease.

My future winemakers made a guest appearance for a punch down!

 

[Donz]

I find that Avante and Zin is a match made in heaven!

 

[Cynewulf]

Had a nice day crushing with the WVA last Monday! 400 lb of Lodi Old Vine Zin split into 3 fermentors.
-2 day cold soak. 3.5 gallons off for a rose
-Fermentor 1: Prelude+Avante +VP41 (coferment)
-Fermentor 2: Prelude+BM4X4 +VP41 (coferment)
--Fermentor 3: Native yeast ferment yeast and ML. (No additives at all- will become sacramental wine if it is good)

The ferment was so vigorous it held up my punch down tool with complete ease.

My future winemakers made a guest appearance for a punch down!

Do you know what the starting pH was?

 

[hawkwing]

I find that Avante and Zin is a match made in heaven!

I hope so!

 

[Cap Puncher]

Do you know what the starting pH was?

I got pH=3.84. TA=4.7. I corrected one fermentor to pH3.47 the other to 3.6 (I’m blending them anyway). Brix was25-26. There were some raisins that leeched out more sugar after it started fermenting.

In the native fermentation, I picked 5lb(after destemmed) of wild grapes from our church. They were pretty acidic. After adding those to 8gal of must, the pH was 3.57 Brix 25. I was happy with that balance since I couldn’t add anything (accept other grapes). It added some of the yeast and other goodies from the vines at the church too (hopefully not bad).

 

[David Violante]

But the later stage DAP is actually what compelled me to post. I’ve been under the impression that it’s the direct opposite of what you said. That once the abv reaches a certain point the DAP no longer helps the yeast but actually will feed the nasties instead b/c …. science. (*fact checkers-lookin your way!)

And thought Ferm-O is recommended if later stage nutrients are needed specifically b/c it lacks DAP. Now I may be completely wrong here and I can’t cite sources, but i committed it to memory so it must have come from somewhere lol.

AJ, I finally had a moment to look back through some postings on YAN and Staggered Nutrient Additions (SNA). @Raptor99 has a good posting here. The paper on Advanced Nutrients in Mead-Making is very helpful in understanding the additions and why. I found it a helpful read, again ... although designed for mead, I think it applies well to winemaking. Bryan (@winemaker81) recently had an issue with RC212 and had to add additional nutrients to overcome their needs beyond what is generally accepted. Same issue I had with the saignee / rose.

There are a lot of other posts about YAN and SNA, Deezil has some really good information as well.

Basically, and I'm typing this for my benefit as well, from @Raptor99 's post, the SNA protocol looks like this:

• Rehydrate with GoFerm
• At 24 hours add 1/2 of the Ferm-O
• At 48 hours add the rest of the Ferm-O
• At 72 hours add 1/2 of the Ferm-K and 1/2 of the DAP
• At the 1/3 sugar break add the rest of the Ferm-K and DAP

This is where I then came into a conundrum as to what to do.... if there's a potential / persistent need for nutrients based on a sluggish fermentation and/or H2S smell (having tried to account for all other reasons), what nutrients do you add and how much. As the protocol starts with F/O and ends with DAP, I used a small amount of DAP.

When I looked back through the postings here I found some variety of how additions were made and even when. In 2010, Deezil began with GoFerm, then half the Fermaid K addition after the lag phase, then the other half at 1/3 break, then all the Fermaid O at the 1/2 - 2/3 break. Postings in the thread here.

Around the same time, Seth discusses going up to the limits of Fermaid K, and then using as much Fermaid O as is needed, as it does not contain thiamine, and therefore you won't reach the legal limit of it in your wine. Posting of that thread here.

In 2013, Deezil has this amazing post on YAN, GoFerm, Fermaid K & O, and DAP with some recommendations based on Brix, and addition schedules to round the fermentation spikes into hills. Organics to start (O&K), DAP in the middle, and if low YAN grapes/must, you could use DAP to finish although Fermaid O would be better since yeast will use-up all organic sources to the end, but only use inorganics up to 2/3 break or so. If moving from organic (Fermaids) to inorganic (DAP) the yeast can switch easily, yet moving in the opposite direction is more difficult and can create a lag.

Winemaker Magazine posted this article from Bob Peak about YAN and completely advocates DAP. I can't find a date but I'm guessing it's old. They also have this article from Dave Green saying that DAP should not be used as a substitute for the organic form of nitrogen.

Back to 2013, I get to lean on the wisdom of @jswordy for having these same conversations with Deezil and Seth now almost 10 years ago:

"Fermaid O is the ideal nutrient to use whenever you can use it. This means pretty much most things that have a somewhat decent nitrogen content. It will result in an overall really balanced steady fermentation. Fermaid O uses amino based nitrogen which the yeast can still utilize even when the yeast reaches the point that cant use DAP. Also, avoid using nutrients after the 1/2 mark unless the wine makes signs of being distressed. Then it would be fine to use something like fermaid O to help it out. But you do not want to overload it with too much because it might not use it all."​

​

"So take home message, Fermaid O rocks when you can use it. When you can't, try using it in conjunction with Fermaid K or DAP to help make up for really large nitrogen needs. Then switch back to Fermaid O. Also, Fermaid O works better than DAP in the late phases of fermentation since it is a amino acid based nitrogen source."​

Sooooo.... very long story short, as you said, I should have used Fermaid O towards the end instead of DAP.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

AJ, I finally had a moment to look back through some postings on YAN and Staggered Nutrient Additions (SNA). @Raptor99 has a good posting here. The paper on Advanced Nutrients in Mead-Making is very helpful in understanding the additions and why. I found it a helpful read, again ... although designed for mead, I think it applies well to winemaking. Bryan (@winemaker81) recently had an issue with RC212 and had to add additional nutrients to overcome their needs beyond what is generally accepted. Same issue I had with the saignee / rose.

There are a lot of other posts about YAN and SNA, Deezil has some really good information as well.

Basically, and I'm typing this for my benefit as well, from @Raptor99 's post, the SNA protocol looks like this:

• Rehydrate with GoFerm
• At 24 hours add 1/2 of the Ferm-O
• At 48 hours add the rest of the Ferm-O
• At 72 hours add 1/2 of the Ferm-K and 1/2 of the DAP
• At the 1/3 sugar break add the rest of the Ferm-K and DAP

This is where I then came into a conundrum as to what to do.... if there's a potential / persistent need for nutrients based on a sluggish fermentation and/or H2S smell (having tried to account for all other reasons), what nutrients do you add and how much. As the protocol starts with F/O and ends with DAP, I used a small amount of DAP.

When I looked back through the postings here I found some variety of how additions were made and even when. In 2010, Deezil began with GoFerm, then half the Fermaid K addition after the lag phase, then the other half at 1/3 break, then all the Fermaid O at the 1/2 - 2/3 break. Postings in the thread here.

Around the same time, Seth discusses going up to the limits of Fermaid K, and then using as much Fermaid O as is needed, as it does not contain thiamine, and therefore you won't reach the legal limit of it in your wine. Posting of that thread here.

In 2013, Deezil has this amazing post on YAN, GoFerm, Fermaid K & O, and DAP with some recommendations based on Brix, and addition schedules to round the fermentation spikes into hills. Organics to start (O&K), DAP in the middle, and if low YAN grapes/must, you could use DAP to finish although Fermaid O would be better since yeast will use-up all organic sources to the end, but only use inorganics up to 2/3 break or so. If moving from organic (Fermaids) to inorganic (DAP) the yeast can switch easily, yet moving in the opposite direction is more difficult and can create a lag.

Winemaker Magazine posted this article from Bob Peak about YAN and completely advocates DAP. I can't find a date but I'm guessing it's old. They also have this article from Dave Green saying that DAP should not be used as a substitute for the organic form of nitrogen.

Back to 2013, I get to lean on the wisdom of @jswordy for having these same conversations with Deezil and Seth now almost 10 years ago:

"Fermaid O is the ideal nutrient to use whenever you can use it. This means pretty much most things that have a somewhat decent nitrogen content. It will result in an overall really balanced steady fermentation. Fermaid O uses amino based nitrogen which the yeast can still utilize even when the yeast reaches the point that cant use DAP. Also, avoid using nutrients after the 1/2 mark unless the wine makes signs of being distressed. Then it would be fine to use something like fermaid O to help it out. But you do not want to overload it with too much because it might not use it all."​

​

"So take home message, Fermaid O rocks when you can use it. When you can't, try using it in conjunction with Fermaid K or DAP to help make up for really large nitrogen needs. Then switch back to Fermaid O. Also, Fermaid O works better than DAP in the late phases of fermentation since it is a amino acid based nitrogen source."​

Sooooo.... very long story short, as you said, I should have used Fermaid O towards the end instead of DAP.

Dap is fine, I think that advice from back then is dated, I am a professional winemaker and I have had to add dap as well as either fermaid k or nutristart which is lafforts equivalent after the halfway mark with no issue, sometimes you get hydrogen sulfide towards the end of fermentations and they get stuck. Which is what happened to my Syrah this year.

As long as you don’t put it in right as fermentation stops you are fine.

 

[David Violante]

Thank you, it's good to hear the experiences of others where the paper meets the road, as it were. I didn't have any issues (so far, knock on wood) with the rose after the addition of DAP. There was a little lag, and then it took off again and finished pretty well.

 

[Ajmassa]

AJ, I finally had a moment to look back through some postings on YAN and Staggered Nutrient Additions (SNA). @Raptor99 has a good posting here. The paper on Advanced Nutrients in Mead-Making is very helpful in understanding the additions and why. I found it a helpful read, again ... although designed for mead, I think it applies well to winemaking. Bryan (@winemaker81) recently had an issue with RC212 and had to add additional nutrients to overcome their needs beyond what is generally accepted. Same issue I had with the saignee / rose.

There are a lot of other posts about YAN and SNA, Deezil has some really good information as well.

Basically, and I'm typing this for my benefit as well, from @Raptor99 's post, the SNA protocol looks like this:

• Rehydrate with GoFerm
• At 24 hours add 1/2 of the Ferm-O
• At 48 hours add the rest of the Ferm-O
• At 72 hours add 1/2 of the Ferm-K and 1/2 of the DAP
• At the 1/3 sugar break add the rest of the Ferm-K and DAP

This is where I then came into a conundrum as to what to do.... if there's a potential / persistent need for nutrients based on a sluggish fermentation and/or H2S smell (having tried to account for all other reasons), what nutrients do you add and how much. As the protocol starts with F/O and ends with DAP, I used a small amount of DAP.

When I looked back through the postings here I found some variety of how additions were made and even when. In 2010, Deezil began with GoFerm, then half the Fermaid K addition after the lag phase, then the other half at 1/3 break, then all the Fermaid O at the 1/2 - 2/3 break. Postings in the thread here.

Around the same time, Seth discusses going up to the limits of Fermaid K, and then using as much Fermaid O as is needed, as it does not contain thiamine, and therefore you won't reach the legal limit of it in your wine. Posting of that thread here.

In 2013, Deezil has this amazing post on YAN, GoFerm, Fermaid K & O, and DAP with some recommendations based on Brix, and addition schedules to round the fermentation spikes into hills. Organics to start (O&K), DAP in the middle, and if low YAN grapes/must, you could use DAP to finish although Fermaid O would be better since yeast will use-up all organic sources to the end, but only use inorganics up to 2/3 break or so. If moving from organic (Fermaids) to inorganic (DAP) the yeast can switch easily, yet moving in the opposite direction is more difficult and can create a lag.

Winemaker Magazine posted this article from Bob Peak about YAN and completely advocates DAP. I can't find a date but I'm guessing it's old. They also have this article from Dave Green saying that DAP should not be used as a substitute for the organic form of nitrogen.

Back to 2013, I get to lean on the wisdom of @jswordy for having these same conversations with Deezil and Seth now almost 10 years ago:

"Fermaid O is the ideal nutrient to use whenever you can use it. This means pretty much most things that have a somewhat decent nitrogen content. It will result in an overall really balanced steady fermentation. Fermaid O uses amino based nitrogen which the yeast can still utilize even when the yeast reaches the point that cant use DAP. Also, avoid using nutrients after the 1/2 mark unless the wine makes signs of being distressed. Then it would be fine to use something like fermaid O to help it out. But you do not want to overload it with too much because it might not use it all."​

​

"So take home message, Fermaid O rocks when you can use it. When you can't, try using it in conjunction with Fermaid K or DAP to help make up for really large nitrogen needs. Then switch back to Fermaid O. Also, Fermaid O works better than DAP in the late phases of fermentation since it is a amino acid based nitrogen source."​

Sooooo.... very long story short, as you said, I should have used Fermaid O towards the end instead of DAP.

Well that is one helluva thorough post Dave! Overloaded with info. Even tho you conceded at the end of your post about late stage O it doesn’t seem as black & white now tho does it? At least not to me. Some conflicting info in there.

And actually this was referenced in passing the other day. Tho we didn’t discuss it further than that it did seem @ceeaton was under the same impression as I was. All I can say is that I had committed this to memory based on, well based on constantly talking shop on here pretty much.

But I will absolutely not die on this hill! My heels are not dug in and always open to understanding more.
But With all that said, I’m not gonna change anything just yet. And I think a lot of home winemaking for many of us is just finding a comfort zome and sticking with it. unless obviously we learn something we’ve been doing is actually incorrect.

@Nebbiolo020 ’s insight is also helpful. That technically it’s probably correct. But to negatively affect your yeast it’s probably gotta be closer to the extreme side of “late”.

All of this is helpful. And I appreciate you taking the time to out all the info together like you did. In the meantime I’ll continue stay the course of:

DAP & K after inoculation or first punch
K at 1/3 to 1/2
O in the event more is needed after this.

(Just a reminder- testing YAN eliminates all this guesswork!)

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Well that is one helluva thorough post Dave! Overloaded with info. Even tho you conceded at the end of your post about late stage O it doesn’t seem as black & white now tho does it? At least not to me. Some conflicting info in there.

And actually this was referenced in passing the other day. Tho we didn’t discuss it further than that it did seem @ceeaton was under the same impression as I was. All I can say is that I had committed this to memory based on, well based on constantly talking shop on here pretty much.

But I will absolutely not die on this hill! My heels are not dug in and always open to understanding more.
But With all that said, I’m not gonna change anything just yet. And I think a lot of home winemaking for many of us is just finding a comfort zome and sticking with it. unless obviously we learn something we’ve been doing is actually incorrect.

@Nebbiolo020 ’s insight is also helpful. That technically it’s probably correct. But to negatively affect your yeast it’s probably gotta be closer to the extreme side of “late”.

All of this is helpful. And I appreciate you taking the time to out all the info together like you did. In the meantime I’ll continue stay the course of:

DAP & K after inoculation or first punch
K at 1/3 to 1/2
O in the event more is needed after this.

(Just a reminder- testing YAN eliminates all this guesswork!)

My rule of thumb is if fermentation is still going and you get any hint of hydrogen sulfide then throw in another dose or half dose of nutrients right away and make sure it gets mixed in good. Then monitor the wine and see if it improves because nutrients are the best way to correct the problem early on, you can get all kinds of problems from insufficient nutrients including stuck fermentation, poor yeast growth, off flavors and aromas. What my advice is, no matter what always add nutrients to every batch of wine it’s a cheap insurance policy against flaws that can end up costing you your entire batch if not taken care of.

Happy to drop by and answer any questions what I’m doing at commercial wineries is just the same stuff on a much larger scale and a lot of home winemakers can take the practices scale them down and improve the wines they make dramatically.

 

[Cap Puncher]

Finally pressed out the old vine zin yesterday with my little helpers! I got to use my re-furbished #45 press (that took me way too long to finish). No big squirts like the other( I was using a mesh bag)

 

[hawkwing]

I was using a mesh bag and mine still squirted.

 

[Donz]

I think all of the squirting problems arise when enzymes are added preferment. I never understood the need for this and feel it's useless.

 

[hawkwing]

I don’t know it was recommended and this was my first time making from whole grapes. So I have no idea what it’s like without enzymes. Maybe next year I’ll try one batch without to see the difference.

 

[CDrew]

I think all of the squirting problems arise when enzymes are added preferment. I never understood the need for this and feel it's useless.

I have to disagree. Enzymes make a huge difference in color and body. So, not useless!

I've had squirts either way. It's normal. My bladder press even came with a cover to contain the squirts and direct it down into the collection gutter. A quick wrap with plastic wrap also accomplishes the same goal.

 

[hawkwing]

I wish I thought of the plastic wrap idea before I had to wash my walls, stove, cupboards etc. and wipe the floor multiple times. Oh well next time.

 

[winemaker81]

I think all of the squirting problems arise when enzymes are added preferment. I never understood the need for this and feel it's useless.

Which enzymes? There are dozens -- many are maceration enzymes, but some are post-fermentation enzymes which are specifically NOT for pre-fermentation and fermentation usage (designed for clarification and turn grape solids to mush).

Like @CDrew, I've gotten amazing color using enzymes. The wines I've made since using a maceration enzyme (Scottzyme ColorPro) have also had better aroma, body, and flavor. It's more difficult to judge as grapes vary by year, but it appears my yields are up (leaving less wine in the pomace).

 

[Donz]

We have used Lallzyme EX in the past. Over the years, we have been trying to reduce the chemicals and additives in our wine as much as possible and the results are still excellent.