Time for a radical departure in bulk aging rules?

[ibglowin]

So I have been bottling quite a few kits lately and being a chemist by trade I got to seriously wondering about sulfite levels in my wine. Should i be testing? Do any of the inexpensive test actually work and are they accurate? I really do not want to set up an expensive titration rig ( I hate wet chemistry!)

I spoke to George about my concerns and he said he does not now recommend bulk aging past 3 months UNLESS you put a solid carboy stopper in. Since the airlocks allow the wine to basically breath, changes in barometric air pressure cause influxes of air in and out of the carboys thus oxidizing your wine and utilizing up all your free SO2 at a rapid pace. Thus if you are bulk aging for say 6-12 months and you are adding a shot of K-meta every 3 months as recommended your wine could be actually very low in free SO2 by the time you bottle as the moment you add a dose it immediately gets sucked up and bound and not available to help out down the road.......


YIKES!

Needless to say I am going to immediately start testing the free SO2 levels in all my carboys that I have bulk aging AND I am going to get rid of the airlock after 3 months and replace it with a solid stopper so that it basically becomes a sealed 6 gallon bottle of wine. You need the airlock for a few months to help let any residual CO2 escape that you may have not gotten rid of when you degassed but beyond that your just basically letting air in and out of the carboy each time a cool front or a storm blows in.


I have ordered a 10 kit Accuvin SO2 test which George says works well but they do have a short shelf life (3 months) so don't order more than you think you will need in 3 months.

I plan on testing a commercial bottle as well as my own just to get a better handle on using the test and make sure I am reading the color right.

Thoughts from the forum experts are most welcome.

 

[MaineGal]

Before anyone goes any further in this discussion, can someone please explain what free SO2 is? Thanks.

 

[ibglowin]

In a nutshell so to speak, sulfite is found in two forms in your wine, one that is "free" and available to react with O2 to keep your wine from spoiling or oxidizing as opposed to "bound" sulfite which has already reacted with oxygen and is basically of no further use as an antioxidant.

George has some nice short articles on Oxydation of your wine

And Sulphite Management

And even more on Sulphites here

 

[robie]

Mike,
What you say makes a lot of sense. I would imagine that the "pumping action" of temperature and barometric changes is more than most of us would guess. This is a great argument for better cellar controls and conditions.

I know I sometimes sound like their sponsor, but if one utilizes Better Bottles, the flexibility of the bottle will allow it to expand and contract with reasonable(??) temperature and barometric changes without putting too much stress on the stopper (stress causing it to leak). I understand that for a glass carboy, even if one uses a solid stopper, one will still get some seepage with change, because the bottle's walls, of course, just don't give or take. I assume the stopper is worse about letting air/CO2/Argon out than letting it in, but after the stopper has let lots of atmosphere out, something has to give when the outside temperature/pressure goes up considerably... it will suck some air back in.

The Better Bottler will not stop this action completely, but I believe it can minimize it.

I have heard the argument that the Better Bottles do let in oxygen through its "skin". I really tried to research this issue. From all I have read, that is not the case for the Better Bottle, even though I wish it were the case, because micro-oxygenation is one of the benefits of aging in an oak barrel, even a neutral barrel. Many commercial wines spend more time in a neutral oak barrel than they do in a non-neutral oak barrel, to get this micro-oxygenation affect, as well as the concentration affect, which is letting water and alcohol out of the barrel.

One can't get this advantage in any carboy. However, if the Better Bottle did micro-oxygenate, it would provide this, which kit wines, without oak barrel aging, sorely miss. I doubt most kit makers utilize oak barrels.

None of what I have said here changes anything about what Mike has reported. I, for one, will heed his and George's advice. However, I do believe the Better Bottle can to some extent minimize the problem.

 

[ibglowin]

I placed an order for 10 Buon Vino Stoppers (solid) like the ones I use in my airlocks. They stick in tight and hold really well. I have too much invested in carboys to switch to better bottles. I will begin testing everything before bottling and i will probably do some experiments at 3 and 6 months with the solid stopper to see how much sulfite has been lost under seal compared to say 6 months with an air stopper.

Will report back the findings once I have some data......

 

[robie]

Yep, I know about the investment. I still use both glass and plastic and will likely still buy both types in the future.

Of course it should be obvious I like the Better Bottles. Recently I bought some small ratcheted tie-down straps. If I am only a few cups short of topping off, which is usually the case, I wrap the tie-down around the Better Bottle several times and distribute the strap along the bottle. I ratchet it a couple of times until the wine level is exactly where I want it. Hate those marbles!!!

We can't do much about the barometric pressure, but we can sure work on the temperature aspect. Nice thing about a 5 or 6 gallon carboy of wine, it's temperature is just not going to change very rapidly. Even an insulated curtain or blanket thrown over them can make a big difference.

I am very interested in your testing outcome.

 

[Cracked Cork]

Guys, one of the advantages of bulk aging with an airlock is that the wine will degass some on its own, with a solid stopper it cant do that and it might slow down its clearing. We bulk age ours in glass with an airlock for about a year and as long as the airlock is filled there are no problems. And if a really low pressure systems moves over your house and that gas wants to escape, pop goes that top and you will be at work and your wine will be open, and if it starts to referment your first clue will be a popped off top. I think its a gamble to put a solid top on after just 3 months, one that doesnt outweigh the threat of oxidation if you just keep your airlocks topped up right. Crackedcork

 

[Bartman]

Assuming that most kit wines will not be bulk aging more than 6 months-1 year or aging for more than 2 years, exercising good cleaning/sanitizing habits, using good corks and adding some SO2 ought to be sufficient to address oxidation issues. For those that intend to age their wine 5-10 years, that's a different ballgame and you're probably in the wrong forum.

Out of some 30 kits, with a few bottles over two years old, I have never had a bottle of my wine oxidize or become corked. I am not very exacting with the k-meta when I rack - I dump a good couple dashes in, but have rarely measured it out. I use mainly glass carboys, but have a few better bottles, and bulk age in my temp. controlled guest bathroom. Since the bathroom is vented, it has a small but direct air connection to the outside if air pressure changes dramatically, but have never noticed any corresponding changes in the carboys. If atmospheric pressure and temperature changes could rapidly alter water levels, we'd all have problems with water tower/water line pressure levels and toilet tank levels, among other things. I am skeptical that air and temp. changes have more than a minimal effect on wine/water/carboy air levels/pressure.

I just don't think it is worth worrying about - but if you are concerned, bulk age 3-4 months and bottle age the rest. (non-)Problem solved.

 

[Runningwolf]

I placed an order for 10 Buon Vino Stoppers (solid) like the ones I use in my airlocks. They stick in tight and hold really well. I have too much invested in carboys to switch to better bottles. I will begin testing everything before bottling and i will probably do some experiments at 3 and 6 months with the solid stopper to see how much sulfite has been lost under seal compared to say 6 months with an air stopper.








Mike, I keep enough of these for most of my carboys. I keep about 1/2 to 1 inch of k-meta in the empty carboys and put a solid stopper on them. This way they are always ready to go and all I have to do is drain them out. Just another use for the solid stoppers.

 

[PeterZ]

Mike,


When I tested the Accuvin tests when George first started carrying them I found that it was best to view the color comparisons under a 60 watt incandescent bulb. Sunlight and fluorescent were the wrong color temperature.


If you are going to put a solid stopper in a carboy and want to prevent all gas transfer, wrap it in Parafilm. Properly Parafilmed, a stoppered carboy can even be stored on its side.

 

[ibglowin]

Don't think I want to tempt fate with that experiment! Thanks for the light information. Makes sense. The Buon Vino stoppers stay put much better than the rubber ones for sure.

To Bart and CrackedCork, this information came straight from Obi Wan Cornelius. I don't think he's making this stuff up. The sulfite test they have run on carboys that were bulk aged for 6-12 months using airlocks all had VERY low levels of "free" sulfite even though they had been getting the usual dose of 1/4 tsp every 90 days. Even when they added another dose of K-Meta the levels didn't rise to the levels they should have based on the calculations. This could only mean one thing. That much of the sulfite that was just added and then retested had already reacted (doing its job trying to protect the wine) and was no longer "free" and available for protecting the wine down the road.

I use a vacuum pump to degas. 3 months is plenty of time for any residual CO2 to escape so I have absolutely no worries or concern about a solid stopper.

I may just start bottling everything at 3 months. At least then you have some "controlled" micro oxygenation via the cork to allow the wine to start the natural process of maturing in the bottle. You get none of that in a stoppered glass system and from the looks of things you get WAY too much air into the system with an airlock.

 

[vscottcolorado]

Mike:
What level of free SO2 are you shooting for?

 

[ibglowin]

According to George, it should be 40-50 for Reds and 50-60 for Whites.

 

[pracz]

I use a vacuum pump to degas.

Mike - Which vacuum pump do you use? Just curious.

Thanks,

Pete

 

[ibglowin]

I use one of these but trust me you don't want one of these, this is not the pump your looking for, move along......

Retail price is over a kilobuck. I picked mine up at a local salvage place in town for much, much, much, much less lets say.

I think the ones people have been snagging on eBay look pretty good and they run about $100 shipped I think. After you go vacuum pump you will never manually degas ever again, plus you can rack as well!

 

[Runningwolf]

I picked up mine at Harbor Freight on sale for about $50.00. The problem with buying an actual vacuum pump is you'll spend about another 25-50 dollars on brass fittings, guage, etc. Plus it uses and spits oil. I keepa paper towel over mine. It is stronger than the ones people have been buying on ebay. Oh Yeah did I mention you'll also have to buy a reservoir container and the fitting for that also. Unless you can tinker with this stuff I would get the machine everyone is getting on ebay.

 

[ibglowin]

Mine is oilless.

Yep just make sure whatever you end up with is oilless!

 

[robie]

Mike,

This is a side note about shortening the bulk aging time. I can't remember where but someone posed a question to some "expert" about why a wine in a highly controlled commercial winery environment can have a super noise/aroma after degassing, but after long periods of bulk aging, it seemed to diminish greatly.

His response was that bulk aging gave opportunity for the aromas to escape from the wine. Even oak barrels (and IMO certainly air locked carboys) breath, so over extended periods of time, the aroma is gone.

He suggested shortening the bulk aging time and bottling sooner.

IMO the aging cycle includes more than the oaking affect, the concentration, and micro-oxygenation that takes place in oak barrels, it includes lots of good ole "time". That time can be spent in a bottle as well. As you pointed out, there is some micro-oxygenation taking place beneath that cork, as well.

From a logical point of view, his advice does make sense, but I don't have enough experience to say he is right or wrong.

I am always concerned about someday opening one of my bottles and finding lots of CO2, so I will always bulk age. As you said, it shouldn't take more than a couple of months bulk aging with an air lock to remove any lingering CO2.

I am glad you started this topic. It is good to read about the gives and takes of subjects like bulk aging.

 

[AlFulchino]

great topic Mike!

 

[hayfire]

This is a great topic. It will be interesting to see the test results.