RJ Spagnols Unacceptable kit odor in all RJS and WE

[dcbrown73]

In my (admittedly limited) experience, the sorbate taste dissipates after 6+ months. 12 is better though.

There are 3 things I did early in my hobby that greatly improved my experience with kits: 1) stop using sorbate on dry wines, 2) adding tannin and 3) barrel aging.

As many will recall, I've been having issues with some of my red kit wines. That is a persistent 'sour' taste and sometimes nose. I'm not sure if that is exactly the same as the OP is experiencing, but it has rendered many a kit not completely enjoyable for me. Not undrinkable, but disappointing to say the least. There is also definitely something lacking in 'grapeness' or 'wineness' that is there in commercial wines. I have no such issues with white wines, curiously enough. This is definitely not a sorbate issue - as I mentioned, I've stopped using it on dry wines and haven't used it in probably 3 years. I don't associate this sour taste with 'kit taste', since some of my reds don't have it. But I'm not sure what it is. Others (@ceeaton , @jgmann67 ), have tried my kit reds and I don't recall them noting this sour flavor. So maybe its just me. But it has me wanting to do fewer red kits and more from grapes.

Excuse my ignorance, but couldn't the added tannins cause something of this nature? (the sour you experience) I heard they add texture and make wines taste more dry and add bitterness.

Do you add it to white wines? You noted you didn't have an issue with them.

I've also heard some people add bananas to wine to add body and mouth fill. Does that impart banana flavor in the wines?

 

[Boatboy24]

Excuse my ignorance, but couldn't the added tannins cause something of this nature? (the sour you experience) I heard they add texture and make wines taste more dry and add bitterness.

Do you add it to white wines? You noted you didn't have an issue with them.

I've also heard some people add bananas to wine to add body and mouth fill. Does that impart banana flavor in the wines?

Tannin was one of my theories. But like I said, not all my reds have this characteristic, yet I add tannin to pretty much all of them. I've never added tannin to a white kit. Just went back and looked through the logs and even some of those red kits that I feel have turned out quite well had tannin added. Just took a quick look at the log. My South African Shiraz-Cab turned out great and had added tannin. The red kits I did both before and after that have that sour taste though (also with added tannin).

I've used banana in the past, but have never had a banana flavor come through.

 

[ceeaton]

My South African Shiraz-Cab turned out great and had added tannin. The red kits I did both before and after that have that sour taste though (also with added tannin).

Jim, I think I still have a few of your "sour" wines in my "other peoples wine" collection. I'll have to pick one out and visit it this weekend and see if I can discern some sourness. So tannin amount might be the source and the barrel could be the source. Do you keep records of which barrel you aged each wine in? For example, did you barrel age one of the sour note wines in the same barrel as the South African Shiraz-Cab, which didn't have sourness? If so that would probably rule out the barrel. Always wondered if you could have a Brett colony starting up in some of that wood, instant sourness.

Roll out the barrel, we'll have a barrel of fun...oh, this is wine, not beer.

 

[Boatboy24]

Brett was one of my concerns. But everything I've read on that talks more about 'barnyard' aromas, not sour.

I have only one barrel for kits, so it isn't the barrel. One other theory is that maybe my sulfite management is lacking on the 'sour' wines and I may have a Brett infection. My sulfites have been added on a schedule, as opposed to being based on measurements. So that is a possibility. Will be remedied soon though, as I have a tool for that en route.

Let me know which wines you have and I'll reply as to whether or not they are the sour ones.

 

[wineh]

My South African Shiraz-Cab turned out great and had added tannin. The red kits I did both before and after that have that sour taste though (also with added tannin).

My South African Shiraz Cab (WE LE) turned out to be one of my best ever with no tinkering, so maybe it was just able to soak up some extra tannin without becoming objectionable. I have asked this question before: if you tinker with a wine kit by making additions (extra oak, tannins etc.) but you never make that kit straight up, how would you know if you improved it or not? That question is still valid, and one that no one has been able to sufficiently answer.

 

[dcbrown73]

My South African Shiraz Cab (WE LE) turned out to be one of my best ever with no tinkering, so maybe it was just able to soak up some extra tannin without becoming objectionable. I have asked this question before: if you tinker with a wine kit by making additions (extra oak, tannins etc.) but you never make that kit straight up, how would you know if you improved it or not? That question is still valid, and one that no one has been able to sufficiently answer.

I've only tinkered with one kit so far. (this is my first year) That kit was my Chardonnay. I split it into (2) three gallon carboys and added 2oz of medium french oak to one.

My intent was the first year to make all different kits and not tweak them at all so I had a base to work with. The fact that I had the extra three gallon carboys allowed me to experiment this year with one kit. The only reason I did that was because I generally prefer an oaked Chardonnay to unoaked. (the kit is unoaked) That said, my view maybe more mixed now as the unoaked wine is quite tasty now too just like the oaked version of it.

 

[Mismost]

I was dinking around with a couple of kits at lunch today. Both had Pot. meta, pot. Sorbate, and 2 packs of Chitosan which contains malic acid and more potassium metabisulphite

That 3 doses of pot. meta if you follow directions. While that doesn't seem to bother me, it might be Dans isn't so lucky.

 

[jburtner]

My South African Shiraz Cab (WE LE) turned out to be one of my best ever with no tinkering, so maybe it was just able to soak up some extra tannin without becoming objectionable. I have asked this question before: if you tinker with a wine kit by making additions (extra oak, tannins etc.) but you never make that kit straight up, how would you know if you improved it or not? That question is still valid, and one that no one has been able to sufficiently answer.

I believe that if one tinkers with consistency and regularity - especially always - then you do collect ongoing empirical observations and data which greatly develops intuition about scenarios which may involve so-called "unknown factors".

Cheers!
-johann

 

[Boatboy24]

My South African Shiraz Cab (WE LE) turned out to be one of my best ever with no tinkering, so maybe it was just able to soak up some extra tannin without becoming objectionable. I have asked this question before: if you tinker with a wine kit by making additions (extra oak, tannins etc.) but you never make that kit straight up, how would you know if you improved it or not? That question is still valid, and one that no one has been able to sufficiently answer.

Short answer is: you don't know. Unless you find a fellow winemaker who did the kit without tweakery and swap bottles.

I agree it is a very good wine. Haven't had one in quite a while - its buried under many cases of newer wine. But my last note was: "This is really, really good already. Textbook flavors and nose. In my eyes, really resembles a SA Shiraz/Cab. Had to double check the age because I couldn't believe it was just over a year old. Tannin in primary and during aging was apparently a very good idea." That was written almost 18 months ago, when the wine was just over a year old. I might have to go digging tonight...

 

[Johnd]

Short answer is: you don't know. Unless you find a fellow winemaker who did the kit without tweakery and swap bottles.

And even then you don't know, different fermentation kinetics, temps, stirring habits, sanitation habits between two different winemakers............

 

[dcbrown73]

And even then you don't know, different fermentation kinetics, temps, stirring habits, sanitation habits between two different winemakers............

This winemaking stuff is....

 

[joeswine]

I think the difference is in the amount of wine you have made over a longer period of time,you get to kno2 what taste profile you come to expect from a certain wine style,coming from a wide ranging wine background and a wine club that had 50 l winemakers in it the product was wide and ranging.Its like I always say,making wine is like making a good sauce you have the base and you add the seasoning,to your taste.EX: you know what a Shiraz Should taste like,no big deal,but how about taking that profile and adding,some fruit,or vioignier,change the profile make it yours,don't get me wrong in the past I've made many straight up that got borring,t gats when I decided to (think outside the box).It opens up a whole new wine making world,in wine making if you don't take risk's with in reason you might as well go to the local store and buy it.

 

[wineh]

I was dinking around with a couple of kits at lunch today. Both had Pot. meta, pot. Sorbate, and 2 packs of Chitosan which contains malic acid and more potassium metabisulphite

That 3 doses of pot. meta if you follow directions. While that doesn't seem to bother me, it might be Dans isn't so lucky.

There is no metabisulfite in sorbate or chitosan.

 

[Mismost]

There is no metabisulfite in sorbate or chitosan.

Well, the package I am looking at right now says potassium metabisulphite, water, malic acid, ChitoClear which is something they squeeze outta a shellfishes *** I suppose. But, I guess they could be wrong...what do they know, they just manufacture the stuff.

 

[wineh]

message deleted

 

[thruhike00]

Not sure if it compares to a NB, but to me the taste is sort of cotton candy like. I've always attributed it to both sorbate and drinking kits too early. I don't notice it at all once I quit using any of the kit chems, (no sorbate, no bentonite, no chitosan, none of that stuff) started barrel aging, and let the wine grow up.

I just sacrificed three bottles of wine and a topper for a carboy for this discussion and blind taste tested with the most tuned nose and taste buds I could find (my wife)...then retested with the neighbors.

Bottle 1
Fontana Cab Sauv made 6/15 with sorbate and clarifiers, no barrel aging and by the book directions.
Bottle 2
Fontana Cab Sauv made 12/15 with bentonite and sulphites with RC212 yeast. Add currants, a dash of coffee, finishing tannin and the leftovers from CC showcase amarone. Barrel aged 6 weeks (newer barrel). bottled 10/16
Bottle 3
WE Stags Leap Merlot. Cannot find note but started around 4-5/15 and made by the book.
Bottle 4
WE stags leap merlot made 1/16. BM4x4 yeast, nothing but sulphites. Same as bottle 2 above without the coffee and barrel aged 9 weeks (might go back in barrel at some point), still in glass carboy that I had to top off.

Bottle 1
Wife: weird taste and nose for a wine...not good and wouldn't let the dog drink it. I could not get cotton candy or geraniums directly from her, but she alluded to a weird candy or sweet taste.
Neighbors: Not your best wine (they are nice people). Probing further elicited "please don't give us this for Christmas".

Bottle 2
Wife: Nice full wine. Nice body and aroma. I would drink this any day. Not a huge cab, but a well bodied wine.
Neighbors: This is goooooooooood. More please!

Bottle 3
Wife: Same weird flavor as first wine, just not quite as pronounced. Still not a good wine. I would drink it if its all we had...but lets not let it come to that.
Neighbors: Better than 1 but not your best. "Please don't give us this for Christmas". They agreed after soliciting more info that there was an off flavor on both 1 & 3.

Bottle 4
Wife: Nice wine but too fruity or something (she didn't know it was young). Its good but something missing and I like 2 better. (wine still has a little gas in it as well)
Neighbors: Me likey this wine.

I knew the fontana doctored cab was good, but am still surprised it turned out this good. I just pitched a double batch of it after amazon got it back in stock this week. One thing that still has me puzzled is the 750ml bottles taste fantastic, while the 1500ml bottles seem to still be in bottle shock and are a completely different flavor.

Dans, I am sure its either the clarifiers or the sorbate...and I would bet you the farm its the sorbate. I tasted all four bottles as well but do not have the refined, nose or palate of my wife. I can taste the sweetness in the by the book wines, and its a little bit off tasting, but would not stop me from drinking completely where my wife thinks barfola. I really believe barrel again ANY kit will improve it dramatically. I do not think you can approach a nicer commercial wine with a kit wine without barrel aging. I disagree with your opinion that a kit wine cannot rival a $15-25 wine. After making the old lodi zin kits I cringe buying a commerical zin any longer without dropping $40+ for a comparable zin. I am sure you could do even better with fresh grapes, I just don't have the time to pursue this part of the hobby at this point in my life, but will in a few years.

My advice to you is:
Spend some time on this site (and others) and find out why and how people make good wines from kits. You kinda come off as a jerk knocking a hobby of 50%+ of the peeps on this site who enjoy making and drinking kit wines in your first post.
If you don't want to take the time to do the research, then spend your time and money on something else and buy commercial wines.
If you do the research start with less expensive kits that you tweek to good wines, and then buy more expensive kits to make really good wine.

 

[thruhike00]

And I forgot. Degas you wine fully...gassy wine can really change the flavor and profile of a wine!

 

[Redbird1]

Hahaha. Barfola. Love it!

Also, great post overall. I love hearing feedback from others, especially from direct comparisons like that.

 

[Rtrent2002]

I agree Dan. I've been making kit wine for about 3 years now and they all have that off taste I can't put my finger on. Drinkable but I'd rather have a $10 glass of ménage instead. I've reduced all additives down to k meta and bulk aged. Still the same taste. However, the wines I make from fresh grapes feel and taste "natural" sorry folks but I'm with Dan on this one.

 

[Redbird1]

No need to apologize. Different people have different tastes.