RJ Spagnols Unacceptable kit odor in all RJS and WE

[Dans]

Excellent article, then discussion, from Winemaker's Academy on this very topic:
http://winemakersacademy.com/potassium-sorbate-wine-making/

Good article. I'm just shocked that kit wine manufacturers include K-sorbate in the kit knowing that it can create potential flows.

 

[Dans]

Dans, you have not only entertained me but also gave me a good laugh. I thank you. I remember a thread from about a 18 months ago about how kit wine should not allowed in the same competitive category as wine made from fresh grapes because kit wines are so much better and had a competitive advantage. It just goes to show that some Bozo will b***h about anything.

The mistake I have made 3 years ago was that I listened to people like you who at that time got me to believe that kit wines are as good if not better than commercial wines. I'm glad though that my opinion was heard.

 

[Dans]

From what I gathered (keeping in mind I have only made one batch so far) it's included to save novice wine makers from making a mistake and having additional fermentation happen. I don't think I will use it in my next batch, but I only like dry white wines, so there may not be as much of an issue. By the way, that site is an excellent resource.

I didn't add it to my chardonnay. It came out perfect. My problem is only with dry red wines though.

 

[GaDawg]

The mistake I have made 3 years ago was that I listened to people like you who at that time got me to believe that kit wines are as good if not better than commercial wines. I'm glad though that my opinion was heard.

Dans, you probably said "if it's no the internet it has to be true"

 

[jburtner]

I didn't add it to my chardonnay. It came out perfect. My problem is only with dry red wines though.

I would recommend to not add the K Sorbate to your dry reds. They dont need it anyway especially if you like them dry.

Best luck and cheers!
-johann

 

[Redbird1]

The mistake I have made 3 years ago was that I listened to people like you who at that time got me to believe that kit wines are as good if not better than commercial wines. I'm glad though that my opinion was heard.

I didn't see anyone attempting to discredit your personal experience. I did see people disagreeing with your assertion that those who enjoy kit wines are in denial about the massive flaws that you believe is inherent in them.

You may indeed have a stronger sense of smell/taste and/or are more sensitive to whatever taste it is you are getting. That doesn't mean everyone shares those traits and that they aren't enjoying kit wines as much as commercial wines.

I think cucumbers have a strong and terrible odor and taste, while most people tell me that it is mild to the point of being nearly tasteless. I don't try to convince them that they're wrong though.

 

[DoctorCAD]

If you don't want your 150 bottles, I will take them off your hands.

 

[Dans]

If you don't want your 150 bottles, I will take them off your hands.

You can have them

 

[brewbush]

I've not noticed a geranium odor, but I detect a similar, consistent taste in all of my kit wines. Guess it's what some call "kit taste". Personally, my kit wines improved noticeably when I quit using sorbate, and took another step forward when I began barrel aging and not drinking them too young. I've got some good ones that I like, some that I don't, others enjoy them more than I. They took yet another step when I started adding pressed skins and bailed out on all chemicals except sulfite. My grape wines are just starting their barrel rotations, and are quite good already, I expect them to surpass the kits, time will tell, but the grape wines cost a lot more to produce.......

I collect and drink a lot of very nice wines, which makes me very picky, but I still enjoy my better kits as "everyday" wines, and the Mrs. likes them too.

Not sure if anyone else had ever noticed this, but the best way I can describe a KT is how similar some of the young aged wine kits taste similar/have a similar smell to a Beaujolais Nouveau. Anyone else ever see a similarity?

 

[Johnd]

Not sure if anyone else had ever noticed this, but the best way I can describe a KT is how similar some of the young aged wine kits taste similar/have a similar smell to a Beaujolais Nouveau. Anyone else ever see a similarity?

Not sure if it compares to a NB, but to me the taste is sort of cotton candy like. I've always attributed it to both sorbate and drinking kits too early. I don't notice it at all once I quit using any of the kit chems, (no sorbate, no bentonite, no chitosan, none of that stuff) started barrel aging, and let the wine grow up.

 

[dcbrown73]

Not sure if it compares to a NB, but to me the taste is sort of cotton candy like. I've always attributed it to both sorbate and drinking kits too early. I don't notice it at all once I quit using any of the kit chems, (no sorbate, no bentonite, no chitosan, none of that stuff) started barrel aging, and let the wine grow up.

I had the understanding that the chitosan (mostly anyhow) and bentonite fell out of the wine during clearing given that both are for clearing.

Do you filter prior to bottling? I bought a canister filter, but haven't yet used it. Even my Chardonnay that I bottled after six months is very clear. Clear enough that a couple of fellow winemakers I met recently was surprised I hadn't filtered it.

 

[terrymck]

drinking kits too early.

Certainly a reason for KT, I agree.

no bentonite,

I don't think that clay contributes any off tastes.

 

[Johnd]

I had the understanding that the chitosan (mostly anyhow) and bentonite fell out of the wine during clearing given that both are for clearing.

Do you filter prior to bottling? I bought a canister filter, but haven't yet used it. Even my Chardonnay that I bottled after six months is very clear. Clear enough that a couple of fellow winemakers I met recently was surprised I hadn't filtered it.

I do not filter my reds. You are correct, both clearing agents, they just speed up what I deem to be a natural process. Did away with sorbate pretty early on (for dry wines). Once I did my first grape wine, devoid of all additives other than KMS, I just decided that, for me, that's the way wine is supposed to be done. I don't know if skipping that stuff makes any difference in the wine, but it sure as hell makes a difference when I drink it. Since it takes longer to clear before even hitting a barrel, my wines are frequently over a year old before even being bottled.

 

[Tetrarch]

Looks like some of us should join biology or linguistics forums.
I have had really bad results with kit red wines. Some responders agreed that kit wines are not as good as wines made with fresh grapes. Most think that kit wines are as good or better than commercial wines. Interesting. Personally I would discourage newbies from making kit wines. It's fun but if you do grapes instead the results will be much more rewarding. Kit wine manufacturers should go back to the drawing board. Kits are overrated (I am allowed to repeat my self)

How soon after pitching do you notice the kt aroma and is it more or less noticable in the higher end kits?
I don't understand why the kits win so many prizes in competition. Time and the addition of skins does seem to make a difference. Another thread indicated that the manufacturers never heard of KT issues.

 

[Johnd]

Just finished racking my MM Meglioli Zin and Shiraz, had a little of each left over after topping with the extra bottles. Combined the two and poured a couple of glasses, I'd put it up against Opus One.

 

[Dans]

How soon after pitching do you notice the kt aroma and is it more or less noticable in the higher end kits?
I don't understand why the kits win so many prizes in competition. Time and the addition of skins does seem to make a difference. Another thread indicated that the manufacturers never heard of KT issues.

From bottling on

 

[joeswine]

In most cases when kits do win the key is balance nose is not as notable but taste whether white or red especially the Blend's with time is there.Fresh juice anymore is thin to start with (imop) not worth the time,fresh grapes however if spot on have the potential to be very special.Now if you take the concept of grapes and a kit. That can be quite a combination .as far as kit taste goes,if you had to taste 20 wine's (kits. at one sitting) they all start to taste the same in any case chemistry plays a Hugh role as well as sanitation.finding agents do not play a role in producing odor or taste.I have done a ton of kits and when the process is done the end product should be complete,just needs time.

 

[jburtner]

So the overwhelming contributing suspect appears to be k sorbate. Anyone backsweeten their reds, also use k sorbate to aid in that task, and not get the "kit taste" in that scenario or have particular comments?

Cheers!
-johann

 

[dcbrown73]

I would definitely like to find a better way to back sweeten wines without sorbate. I like semi-sweet Riesling pairings with my spicy Cajun food. I would like to make fortified Ports style wines in the future too.

I don't really do desert wines, but given my interest in tinkering. I have some ideas to work with fruit wines in that fashion.

 

[Boatboy24]

I would definitely like to find a better way to back sweeten wines without sorbate. I like semi-sweet Riesling pairings with my spicy Cajun food. I would like to make fortified Ports style wines in the future too.

I don't really do desert wines, but given my interest in tinkering. I have some ideas to work with fruit wines in that fashion.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, the sorbate taste dissipates after 6+ months. 12 is better though.

There are 3 things I did early in my hobby that greatly improved my experience with kits: 1) stop using sorbate on dry wines, 2) adding tannin and 3) barrel aging.

As many will recall, I've been having issues with some of my red kit wines. That is a persistent 'sour' taste and sometimes nose. I'm not sure if that is exactly the same as the OP is experiencing, but it has rendered many a kit not completely enjoyable for me. Not undrinkable, but disappointing to say the least. There is also definitely something lacking in 'grapeness' or 'wineness' that is there in commercial wines. I have no such issues with white wines, curiously enough. This is definitely not a sorbate issue - as I mentioned, I've stopped using it on dry wines and haven't used it in probably 3 years. I don't associate this sour taste with 'kit taste', since some of my reds don't have it. But I'm not sure what it is. Others (@ceeaton , @jgmann67 ), have tried my kit reds and I don't recall them noting this sour flavor. So maybe its just me. But it has me wanting to do fewer red kits and more from grapes.