Wanna make better wine?

[Geronimo]

There's always the obvious; buy a better kit.

And your process... take your time, practice good sanitation, watch the SG.

But one thing frequently goes over looked. FEED THE YEAST! Grape juice isn't the perfect environment for yeast propagation, without a little help. I highly recommend using a tablespoon of Yeast Engergizer (Diammonium Phoshate or DAP) at the start and adding another teaspoon when you rack to secondary. Also, using a good yeast nutrient at the start will make the fermentation go quicker and end up cleaner. These things won't be optional if you use any of the specialty yeasts... they NEED some feeding and won't perform well (or even complete) without it! But even good ol' EC-1118 can use a boost for best results.

I think it's just plain sad that only ONE company thinks yeast nutrient is more important than labels. Who cares about the wine as long as the bottle is pretty, right?

 

[cpfan]

Geronimo...

I'm pretty sure that kit manufacturers include quite a bit of nutrient in their kits. That's why they don't provide extra.

Steve

 

[Runningwolf]

Geronimo, one thing I would do different then what you mentioned is add more when you rack to secondary. Many people don't rack until they are close to zero brix or 1.0sg. Additional nutrient should be added 1/3 through fermentation for optimal effectiveness.

 

[JohnT]

i use a nutrient cocktail.... fermax and good old dap. geranimo, i could not agree more! after backing up fermax with dap, my wine quality shot up... the best solution to h2s issues!

 

[olusteebus]

i use a nutrient cocktail.... fermax and good old dap. geranimo, i could not agree more! after backing up fermax with dap, my wine quality shot up... the best solution to h2s issues!

What amounts do you use and when?

 

[Geronimo]

i use a nutrient cocktail.... fermax and good old dap. geranimo, i could not agree more! after backing up fermax with dap, my wine quality shot up... the best solution to h2s issues!

I agree. I used to use Wyeast Brewer's Choice Nutrient Blend but now I use go-ferm. It's all pretty much the same, just dried yeast hulls with a little vitamin blend.

Adding DAP is no problem, the yeast will consume it no matter how far along the fermentation is (as long as they are active of course). But I only add nutrient at the start. I've heard that adding it later can be a problem.

 

[bkisel]

Geronimo...

I'm pretty sure that kit manufacturers include quite a bit of nutrient in their kits. That's why they don't provide extra.

Steve

I believe you're correct especially with regards to big name kits like RJS, WE, CC, etc.. For non-kit I'll often see recipes that have both yeast nutrient and energizer being used.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Actually, grapes are a perfect medium for wine yeasts. Thats why the strains work.

Can you help them along...sure.

 

[Turock]

High sugar musts need nitrogen. Wine is not a good source of nitrogen--some grapes and fruit start out with low YAN. So it's not as good an environment for yeast as some may think. But it's not a good idea to add nutrient in the secondary. Yeast can no longer utilize the nitrogen at that point, and you're setting up the ferment for any competing organisms to utilize the nitrogen.

www.lallemandewine.com has great info on nutrient use as do all the lab websites. I think it's important to understand nutrient use as described on the lab websites and is a must read for all winemakers.

 

[Geronimo]

I never add more nutrient to a fermentation after the start.

Actually I rarely add more DAP after the start, unless it's going to be a 15%+ ABV (especially ports). Then I try to catch it before it hits 1.030.

 

[Turock]

If you add the entire dose at the beginning--when the yeast becomes active---and no more and have no problems with the ferment, then you may just be lucky, or have a ferment where the YAN is kind of high. But this is not the best way to handle nutrient doseage and don't be surprised if, someday, you have a ferment that is slow or becomes stuck or emits H2S. If you stick to one yeast that seems to work for you, and only ferment a few things over and over, then you might have a situation that seems to work for you. But many of us are using different yeasts--different musts of varying quality. So to say that one dose in the beginning is the correct way to handle nutrient is not right. Just because it works for you doesn't make it proper for others to think this is all that's needed.

It's OK to talk about one's own experience--but it's always best to preface the discussion by saying it goes against what any lab will tell you to do to have a smooth and trouble-free ferment because we have so many new winemakers on this site that may get the wrong idea of the proper way to do it.

 

[Tom_S]

When I first started making wine I didn't know about yeast nutrient. I would get a decent fermentation going but would take a while. Then the first time I used yeast nutrient I was surprised at how vigorous the fermentation went, with the must bubbling like freshly opened champagne. Where before it would take almost two weeks in primary, using yeast nutrient makes the yeast burn through the sugar in about a week. Now I always use it.

 

[Geronimo]

I just want to make sure new people are clear....

Yeast nutrient is a medium of dried, dead yeast mixed with some vitamins. Nutrient provides the building blocks for new yeast cells. Nutrient is not much help after the initial growth phase.

Yeast energizer is like fertilizer, usually just called DAP (short for diammonium phosphate). DAP supplies a burst of FAN (free amino nitrogen). It makes yeast (a plant) really go to work during the growth phase, but it also helps keep the yeast going strong once the alcohol levels get over 6% or 8%. If you remember the old days of fertilizer, you'd put it on your lawn and the next day the grass would be greener. In 2-3 days the grass would be thick, lush and dark green. That was DAP (mostly) that caused that instant perk up.

The word "nutrient" is often used to describe diammonium phosphate or a combination of DAP and yeast hulls. Wyeast Yeast Nutrient is a different product than LD Carlson yeast nutrient which is DAP plus urea. LD Carlson Energizer is DAP plus yeast hulls and vitamins. Fermax doesn't say what's in it, but it does say to use it before the fermentation begins, so it's probably DAP plus hulls and vitamins. It's all really confusing.

According to WYeast, adding just plain DAP part way through a fermentation is safer than adding any "food" source like yeast hulls etc. I'm not a microbiologist, so I've always followed this advice and never had any issues. The yeast will consume the nitrogen regardless of what stage they are in.

 

[Geronimo]

I was over to a friend's place and tried some of his 1 year old Stag's Leap Merlot. It was pretty tasty, but I could detect acetaldehyde (green apples) and a hint of vinegar flavor. Since it's a year old, I think it's safe to say it's not infected. He said he's never used any nutrient/energizer and all of his fermentations slow way down in secondary, then getting from 1.000 down to 0.994 or lower takes 2-3 weeks, if it ever happens.

I recommended that he use nutrient and also splash the juice when he pours the bag into primary. The kit makers do a great job of making the juice as oxygen void as possible for extended shelf life. Aerating the juice makes the aerobic phase of the fermentation so much stronger which really matters for healthy yeast... but so does some nutrient.

My port kits went quickly from 1.115 to 0.992 in 10-12 days (over 16% ABV) and they taste really excellent!

The stuff really works, and it's CHEAP! Go get some nutrient and energizer if you don't use it already.

 

[Deezil]

There's some inaccuracies in this thread that I would like to correct..

Not all yeast nutrients are the same. A vast majority of them use some amounts of DAP, an inorganic form of nitrogen - the primary food source of yeast. Yeast cannot (as efficiently, or at all) consume inorganic nitrogen past a certain point in their life cycle (roughly 50% through fermentation), instead they feed on the lesser amounts of vitamins and minerals to make use of organic nitrogen metabolic pathways, leaving the DAP for spoilage organisms.

This is why adding DAP to a fermenting wine that's past halfway done, won't bring the cap back to the surface after it falls.

This is also why it's not recommended to use DAP past 50% sugar consumption.

Feeding yeast DAP is like feeding children candy and soda. Are they alive? Sure.. Healthy? Depends on how much you pay attention. Could they be healthier?.. Silly question. Turock nailed when to use DAP correctly.

There are, for sale, organic forms of yeast nutrition - the most popular being Fermaid-O.

Tablets dying, I'll have to finish this later

 

[Geronimo]

This is a good simple read on the subject

http://www.nanaimowinemakers.org/Winemaking/General/AddingNitrogen.htm

 

[Geronimo]

This is another good read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast_assimilable_nitrogen

It states that FDA regulation limits the use of DAP to 8 lbs per 1000 gallons, which translates to 22 grams per 6 gallon batch. That's a lot!! About 3/4 of an ounce. A 2 ounce container lasts me through 6+ batches, so I'm using less than 9 grams per batch.

 

[jethro]

(Oh, so that's what YAN is. I was just about to ask.) Thank you for sharing your wisdom, Jim. I will remember to add yeast nutrient when I make my cabernet sauvignon.

 

[Geronimo]

I just checked my measurements. I was using ~6 grams of DAP at inoculation and ~3 more grams on the 3rd day.

 

[BernardSmith]

I guess my question is how do the yeast know when 50 percent of the sugar has been consumed or when 30 percent has been. If your starting gravity is 1.090 then 50 percent will be at a gravity of 1.045. If your starting gravity is 1.060 then 50 percent will be 1.030. So what precisely is the mechanism and the chemistry that compels us to add nutrients at the fifty percent point? Thanks