when good wines gone bad

[Sirs]

it gets worse as you get older lol

 

[joeswine]

Forward to backward




REMEMBER HOW THIS THREAD STARTED ,WHAT IF THIS OR WHAT IF THAT HAPPENED AND THE USE OF FPACS AND ZEST ALONG WITH SIMPLE SYRUP AND EXTRACTS,ALL THE COMPONENT'S ALONG WITH CONCENTRATES AND DIFFERENT FLAVOR ENHANCERS,REMEMBER THAT ?


WELL ITS THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THE WINE ITSELF THAT IS THE ISSUE WITH MOST OF WHAT I READ AND WRITE, SO MAYBE ITS TIME TO TAKE A STRAIGHT LOOK AT WHAT MAKES UP THE BODY AND STRUCTURE OF WINE ITSELF,ALSO IF YOU CAN RECALL I MENTIONED THE PARTNER SYSTEM OF WINES AND HOW THE CHARACTERISTICS ENHANCE OF EACH HELP CREATE A DIFFERENT WINE PROFILE FLAVOR ALL TO TOGETHER OR TO CORRECT A WINE THAT HAS A CORRECTABLE PROBLEM,.


THE BODY AND STRUCTURE OF WINE ..NEXT

 

[joeswine]

reply

Sirs did you get my reply?

 

[Sirs]

no didn't get it

 

[joeswine]

agreement


I'm not as good as I should be with the computer soon sometimes i not sure of what I'm doing,.

I agree with you for the most part do what is the best for you but always remember their might be a better way or at least try it,by allowing natural yeast to take over you might not get the full benefit of the wines structure,on the other hand by using the best yeast for the wine type that your making and scientifically bring out the charistics of the wines correct profile these are some of the mental steps we as home wine makers need to take to understand and learn how to create the body and structure of wine,believe it or not I don't like to read but when it comes to wine making that is my exception and has been my benefactor as I have grown,,I appreciate your comments pleas do not stop ,yours.JP

 

[joeswine]

The body and structure of wine

THIS IS A BROAD SUBJECT AND TO GIVE YOU A MORE INSITE WE THE SOUTH JERSEY WINE MAKERS JUST HAD OUR OCT.MEETING AT THE SOUTHWINDS WINERY IN MILLVILL NJ,SO NOW WAS THE CORRECT TIME FOR ME TO START THIS THREAD WITHOUT FUTHER ADO.


THE BODY AND THE STRUCTURE OF WINE FROM A CELLAR DWELLARS STAND POINT,WHERE DOES IT BEGIN,WELL AT THE POINT OF SOURCE THE VINYARD ,THE TYPE OF SOIL IS IT LUMIS ,ROCKY ,SANDY ETC,THE SITE ON WHICH IT IS GROWN ON THE HILLSIDE, IN A VALLEY,OR TERRACED ,HOW MUCH SUNSHINE IN HRS.PER DAY ,HOW MUCH RAINFALL PRE DAY OR MONTH AND DRAINAGE WINE GRAPES DON'T LIKE THERE FEET WET ,SO i'M TOLD, AT WHAT TIMES OF THE YEARS IS THE SUN- THE HOTEST AND OF COURSE WHAT TYPE OF GRAPE WINES ARE YOU TRYING TO GROW ,ALL THE ABOVE CLIMATIC CHANGES AND ELEMENTS TAKE A BIG PART IN THIS PLAY ,WITH THE CHANCE THAT WHEN ITS ALLS SAID AND DONE THERE ARE ENOUGHT GRAPES WITH THE THE PROPER CHARISTICS TO MAKE THE WINE YOU THOUGHT YOU WOULD HAVE.any

IM SURE THAT THOSE OF YOU WITH ACTUAL WINERIES CAN LIST MUCH MORE BUT I THINK THAT GIVE THE NOVICE THE IDEA.SO LETS MOVE ON ...................

LETS BREAK DOWN THE STRUCTURE OF A WINE ,FIRST THERE'S/ alcohol theirs the largest portion of the wine with water if need for with out the kick why would you want the wine, excepted values any where from 11to 13% by volume,how do we get the ABV. the sugars in the grape fermented down produce this lovely taste,but it requires balance and to that end we ad tannins, whether its chips,dust or logs,it secretes acids that along with the juice start to form body,layering the different types of tannins will deliver good balance other sources of tannins are extracted from the stems and the skins of the grape,this creates the drying,slightly astringent sensation in your mouth.tannins can be harsh and green or velvety in texture all depends on the winemaster and what he or she is trying to achieve.ACIDITY is part of the structure of wine,giving it lift and intensity.without acidity wines taste flat or flabby while with too much acidity they can be seem shrill ,and tart and excessively lean.


This is all geared to the structure and the balance of the wine

so lets see we have grown he grape,harvested it at the peak of bricks level around 23% pressed the grape,added tannins,acid blend maybe,maybe pectin enzyme,did I forget the yeast what type that's important for that will also define the direction the wine will travel ,
(its a red) so we let the skins set for a week getting all the tanins and color we can out of the MIX ,all the while punching the cap down,after a period of time its ready for a racking ,now the wine can start to transform in to a drinkable brew .........................but its still not there yet..

 

[joeswine]

What are tannins ?

TANNIN ACID,YELLOWISH TO LIGHT BROWN AMORPHOUS,POWDERED,FLAKED ,CHIPPED OR LOGGED,DERIVER FROM THE BARK PLANTS ,THERE ARE HYDROLYZABLE AND CONDENSED TANNINS.?
DON,T GO TO SLEEP YET WHAT ARE TANNINS ,THEY COME FROM A GROUP OF PLANTS WHICH CREATE POYPHENOLS,THESE ARE FOR THE MOST PA RT WATER SOLUBLE,

TANNIC ACID IS A PARTICULAR TYPE OF HYDROLYZABLE ,THIS ONE CAN BRAKE DOWN WITH WATER,CONDENSED TANNINS ARE FOUND IN TEAS AND GRAPE SEED AND SKINS,THESE TANNINS ARE TWO OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS IN OUR PLAY.......TO BE CONTINUED

 

[joeswine]

tanins


TANNINS IN THE RED


RED WINES ARE USUALLY MADE WITH RED OR PURPLES GRPES FERMENTED WITH THE SKINS,SEEDS,AND OFTEN PIECES OF STEMS WHICH IN TURN GIVES THE RED WINE ITS CONDENSED TANNINS,THINK OF HOW WITH YOUR TOP OF THE LINE KITS NOW YOUR GETTING THE RASIN PACS AND GRAPES PACS THIS IS TO ADD THE BODY , HOWEVER THEY ALSO SHOULD IMPART TANNINS BACK AS WELL IF THERE A TRUE FPAC, AND GREATER DEPTH OF COLOR ,IF THERE'S ANYLEFT FOR THEM TO ENFUSE AFTER REHYDRATION,THATS WHY YOU USUALLY ARE GETTING MORE TYPES OF OAK ,POWDERED, AND CHIP,ONCE AGAIN TO GIVE BALANCE AND ADD THE ACIDITY NEEDED TO CREATE MORE STRUCTURE IN THE WINE,


WHITE WINES ON THE OTHER HAND USUALLY JUST ARE MADE FROM JUICE AND MAY BE INFUSED WITH OAK IN A BARREL FOR A SHORT TIME ,AS MANY WINE MAKERS DO WITH CHARDENAY FOR EXAMPLE ,USUALLY AFTER FERMNTATION IS STAINLESS THEN TRANSFERED TO OAK FOR A TIME ,(UP TO THE WIMES MASTER) .

WHY ARE TANNINS IMPORTANT..TO BE CONTINUES

 

[joeswine]

So why are tenants important

Tannins are very important to the body and the structure of the wine they can enhance the flavor of the foods that we are eating with them and act as a preservative as well as a flavor enhancer tannins are the walsl of our structure.

So now the alcohol which is a foundation the tannins which are the walls of our structure, now we add the final component. ACIDS for without the acids and

the work they do the



body and the structure wine would not happen.

 

[joeswine]

Layering the tannins

REMEMBER how in this thread I spoke of layering tannins,well if you look at what the high end kits are doing just that,only there asking you to add all at once,don't ,allow the hard woods to go in the primary and the powder to go into the secondary,layering I believe gives us the aging factor (to and extent) and a rounding out of the structure of the wine.

 

[joeswine]

Next

ACIDS AND THEIR EFFECT ON THE BODY AND THE STRUCTURE OF WINE

 

[joeswine]

Building together

THE BODY AND STRUCTURE OF WINE


REMEMBER IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD i STATED HOW ZESTING BROUGHT A BRIGHTNESS TO THE FINISH OF THE WINE ESPECIALLY THE WHITES,WELL WE ARE GOING TO START TO CLOSE IN ON THE STRUCTURE BY ADDING ACIDS ,THE BINDING AGENT THAT HELPS CREATE THE MOUTH FEEL AND THE BITE ,REMEMBER I MIGHT BE A LITTLE UNORTHODOX IN MY WAYS BUT FOR A CELLAR DWELLER THIS WORKS,

 

[joeswine]

the finish of the wine

what is the term" finish "in the wine world ,well its the final taste you experience,sweet,tart,sour and flabby OR smooth,these are all terms to describe the finish of wine,but how do they get there?

acids in the wine HAVE a lot of different effects depending on the volume and the types of acids involved,acids also help to control the bacterias the wine ,develops the color and helps preserve the wine also.normal ph in a wine can be from 2.9 to 3.9 depending on the wine type.

their are different types of acids that are involved in the wines development,malic,citrus,(remember that one) acetic,butyricc,lactic and succinic all ply a roll.there are some others such as ascorbic,sorbic and sulfurous acids.
AS stated this was going to be a long one,but for the vast majority of kit makers and fresh juice makers,who get there product in a ready state this is not a issue but could and might effect how you want your wine to finish out,if your not careful of the sanitation and the handling of the wine making process.


REMEMBER THE ZEST

 

[joeswine]

Building blocks

TARTARIC ACID,THE PRIMARY AND MOST IMPORTANT OF THE ACIDS,THEY HELP CONTROL THE STABILITY OF THE WINE AND ITS COLOR AND FINALLY IN ,INFLUENCING THE TASTE OF THE FINISH PRODUCT.
WE HAVE ALL SEEN OR MAYBE NOT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WINE IS SUBJECTED TO COLDER TEMPERATURE,THE CRYSTALLIZATION OF THESE TARTRATES CAN HAPPED ANY TIME AND IS SEEN AS BROKEN GLASS IN THE BOTTOM OF THE BOTTLE.SOME TIMES THIS IS DELIBERATELY DONE AND IS CALL COLD FERMENTATION,TO HELP PRECIPITATE OUT THE TARTRATES .

 

[joeswine]

Can you see the structure



We started with the alcohol then we added the tannins now we're adding the acids major building blocks of wine and how to of it, we yet discuss the remaining acids that can and sometimes do make up the body of wine and some of the ones that we really don't want.

I had someone the only e-mail me and ask me about when to add the fpac and or the zest, and how do I do it so maybe it's time to take a step backward to go forward again and bring this back to light this week then finish the acids, I think that's the smart thing to do, so will start by creating a fpac.

I'm sure there's a lot of people on this website who make fpac's their way and is probably quite similar to the way I do. I like to work berries a lot so will do a berry fpac.

Adding fpac is very similar to making a sauce in this case were using berries instead of tomatoes, wash berries,to process the fruit you can do this 2 Ways You put it in a blender rough chop it and then place it in a 14 inch skillet or take the raw berries wash them put them in a 14 inch deep skillet with a little bit of sugar and little bit a water and start to break them down with heat once they've cooked down to an 80% , that's the time I usually put a little kmet in the I don't want them to start reactivating the fermentation if I can help it and that's why do this(this is my style(okay now we cook down berries to a preserve level let them cool, just a little allow for the volume of the berries to enter the juice so you may have to take some juice out, have to think before you act now that you have the berries and the wine altogether stir them ,this gives you more of a mess to clean up because once you have to dump these carboys you have more settlement the bottom, I usually take it outside dump it in the flowerbeds and wash out with the hose that's how I do, now comes the part that takes patience you need to start taking SG readings for at least the next five days make sure no fermentation is restored at that point just walk away don't stir don't do anything to the wine just walk away ,allow at least one month to two months ago by then rack the wine.

At this point you should be able taste, I do tasting all along except of courseprimary and, secondaries not to Cool either but I do, do tasting as I'm going along. See if you've picked up the flavors your looking for, now is the time you can make any adjustments ,may needed to back sweeten a little usually most berries will give up their flavor easily remember the Barry you never have it totally dry that's why you have to watch fermentation, so if it's your liking, backsweeten let it set for 2 to 3 days check your SG, all's well then add your finding agent and wait for to clear.

 

[joeswine]

Returning to the acid

Acetic acid, is a two-part organic acids produced in wine during or after the fermentation..period. It is the most volatile of the primary acids associated with wine and is responsible for the sour taste of wine vinegar. During fermentation, activity by yeast cells naturally produced a small amount of acetic acid. If the wine is exposed to oxygen, acetobacter bacteria will convert ethanol into acetic acid. This process is known as a aceticifacation, and is the primary process behind wine degradation into vinegar. An excessive amount of anesthetic acid is also consider the wine fault. A tasters sensitivity to Astec acid will very, but most people can detect excessive amounts normally.

Well I said there was a lot to the subject and there is but how many of you out there have ever tasted sour wine. I have a little experiment for you do, take a small amount of red wine , Leave it on a countertop exposed to the air for a-week, taste it, are you starting to taste the sour I started taste of vinegar put a lid on it for the next week, tasted again, then tell me when taste. This is old-time way of making wine vinegar of old wine that we used to use in South Philadelphia where I came from, we never through the wine away we drank it or use of this vinegar... Will return to finish up acids in the wine ... Try the test

 

[joeswine]

Happy turkey turkey day

Happy turkey day everybody talk to you on Monday BSafe have a great day

 

[tonyt]

You too joe. And thanks for all your helpful posts.

 

[Sirs]

yeah have you a really good weekend

 

[joeswine]

Happy Wednesday everybody

Well it's time we got this thread going again been very busy for a while but I have some news to report. I have my wife Lucille winetasting for me when I gave her to taste was my plum and peach one,my saove, Chardonnay, two different peach wine.

She has great taste but you can pick out the smallest nuances, so she is my sounding board and then I take the corrective measures.

Plum/peach combo -good all-around taste plum upfront /peach to the backend. But it needed some more alcohol.

The soave way to tart, which means to me too much acid in the Chardonnay was hard to define, but that's okay because both of these wines are really young and have a long way to go, but I threw them into the mix anyway.

Now the two different type of peach wine ,the first was done useING FRUIT from an Orchard not far from us their process is to squeeze fresh peaches from the trees, filter,and convert into juice. The second type I had in a carboy for over a year now and it was made from the same vineyard but with fresh peaches ,I blended the fresh peaches with the fresh juice and created 6gallon totally,but not quiet enough abv. for her taste,, So now what needs to happen, I need to add alcohol to my fruit wine, how do we do that, we can do it two different ways, I can make the alcohol or I could add 2 ounces of sugar and yeast to my blends a little at a time, to the alcohol level that I desire. Just another way of tweaking the wine.,or ferment my simple syurp and yeast and create alcohol and add it to taste....then let her try again?