Which Acid, and does it matter?

[back2it]

I am running out of malic acid. Now being a cheap skate, I am reluctant to buy more malic as I have a BIG bag of tartaric to hand.

I have been using acid based on the fruit I am using. Most of them have malic so that’s what I use, but I am wondering if I can substitute tartaric and if it will make a difference?

Thanks

 

[winemaker81]

It will make a difference, but it may not be a problem, IF you like the taste.

You're used to the tang of malic acid, so that will be lessened. I suggest you try tartaric in a small quantity, say 1 liter, and see if you like it.

 

[back2it]

Play time

 

[winemaker81]

I make primarily grape wines, so I keep tartaric on hand. I do have quantities of citric and acid blend on hand, although I phased out acid blend as there's no telling what the blend actually is. I use citric and blend when making K-meta solution, to use 'em up. Tartaric gets used up normally.

 

[back2it]

Agreed, I don't use a blend and never have for exactly the reason that I dont know what is in it. I also have an aversion to citric, logical or not, it is there.

I mostly makew fruit wines and use malic because that seems to be the prevelant acid in the fruits I use but do have tartaric because I purchased all three at the beginning of my journey, mainly because I had no idea what I needed (or was doing). It was a throw enough and some will stick aproach. I suppose that still applies with the exception that I can actually drink the concoctions I now make

Still need to learn more.

 

[Sailor323]

It probably won't make a huge difference. Malic acid is milder than tartaric so you may notice a slightly more tart taste in the wine.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Which acid you use will make a difference BUT most people haven’t had access to clean acids so they won’t be able to taste the difference.

* MALIC produces sharp notes, it is the difference between tasting a pie cherry and a Bing cherry, a rhubarb wine where the acid is removed by fermenting with Malurvurn B yeast is flabby, more like a punch. Malic can be removed as with 71B or MLF or wild lactic fermentation so if I see pH creep up on apple containing products I will not replace it with malic. Malic is fast on the tongue/ has a pKa near the formulated pH so it jumps to pKa2 quickly.
* CITRIC produces a fruity flavor which reminds me of oranges. Citric is cheap/ chemically synthesized/ widely used. It is used in a lot of places where a generic acid is wanted. It is a little more sharp (faster on the tongue) than tartaric. If fermentation there is a risk of metabolism producing a dairy note. Is sometimes on a label as a preservative since it can chelate iron.
LACTIC a dairy or cheese like flavor. Not as sharp meaning the pKa is above formulating pH.
TARTARIC is a good general purpose acid. Less sharp than malic and citric, more sharp than lactic. It is a good replacement for malic since it will be easier to drink but still give some impression of sharpness.
PHOSPHORIC is chemically synthesized so it is cheap/ work bought it by the tanker truck. Has sharp notes a bit more than malic/ a low pKa. Has three H+ so is nice for buffering. I will use it to replace malic lost in wild lactic infections since it won’t be metabolized. Looks bad on a natural food label since it is a chemical/ sometimes hidden as work called it water treatment knowing water was part of the formula.
SULFURIC not intentionally used in food systems. Not as stable Ie anytime we add K metabisulphite for ReDox control in wine, or SO2 gas to dried apricots we will produce trace amounts of SO4. Mild, ~not easy to name.

 

[back2it]

@Rice_Guy
As always, above and beyond. Not just information but something that will enhance my overall understanding of this process.

Thank you

 

[BigDaveK]

Too bad you have an aversion to citric, @back2it. After multiple batches I wouldn't use anything else in some berry and flower wines. Crisp and fruity. It's cheap in larger quantities (not the wine supply sizes) and has a boatload of uses around the house.

 

[Rice_Guy]

yes, fruity,

Crisp and fruity and has a boatload of uses around the house.

and works well for descaling the DW still, , or the heater on the washer in the bakery.

 

[back2it]

I have reviewed and revised many of my prejudices since joining this forum, and this seems like another that I need to look at again

 

[wineview]

Which acid you use will make a difference BUT most people haven’t had access to clean acids so they won’t be able to taste the difference.

* MALIC produces sharp notes, it is the difference between tasting a pie cherry and a Bing cherry, a rhubarb wine where the acid is removed by fermenting with Malurvurn B yeast is flabby, more like a punch. Malic can be removed as with 71B or MLF or wild lactic fermentation so if I see pH creep up on apple containing products I will not replace it with malic. Malic is fast on the tongue/ has a pKa near the formulated pH so it jumps to pKa2 quickly.
* CITRIC produces a fruity flavor which reminds me of oranges. Citric is cheap/ chemically synthesized/ widely used. It is used in a lot of places where a generic acid is wanted. It is a little more sharp (faster on the tongue) than tartaric. If fermentation there is a risk of metabolism producing a dairy note.
LACTIC a dairy or cheese like flavor. Not as sharp meaning the pKa is above formulating pH.
TARTARIC is a good general purpose acid. Less sharp than malic and citric, more sharp than lactic. It is a good replacement for malic since it will be easier to drink but still give some impression of sharpness.
PHOSPHORIC is chemically synthesized so it is cheap/ work bought it by the tanker truck. Has sharp notes a bit more than malic/ a low pKa. Has three H+ so is nice for buffering. I will use it to replace malic lost in wild lactic infections since it won’t be metabolized. Looks bad on a natural food label since it is a chemical/ sometimes hidden as work called it water treatment knowing water was part of the formula.
SULFURIC not intentionally used in food systems. Not as stable Ie anytime we add K metabisulphite for ReDox control in wine, or SO2 gas to dried apricots we will produce trace amounts of SO4. Mild, ~not easy to name.

Are you removing malic acid during MLF? Does 71B act similarly as doing MLF?

“Malic can be removed as with 71B or MLF”

 

[winemaker81]

Are you removing malic acid during MLF? Does 71B act similarly as doing MLF?

“Malic can be removed as with 71B or MLF”

MLB, if allowed to run to completion, eats all of the malic acid and emits milder lactic acid.

71B typically east 25-30% of the malic acid. Nothing in Lallemand's description says anything about the output of the yeast, other than alcohol.

So while both eat malic acid, the result is different.

 

[Raptor99]

I try to use the acid that is predominant in the fruit. For blueberry wine, I use citric acid, for hard cider, I use malic acid. I sometimes also add some acid blend in the mix to provide a variety of acids.

My goal is to emphasize the natural fruit flavor. If you add tartaric acid to blueberry wine, it won't taste as much like blueberries. This is an area that is often ignored. The type of acid you add will affect the final flavor.

 

[winechef]

I use a combination of tartaric and citric acid. like suggested, I'd experiment trying different combination

 

[BPL]

So while both eat malic acid, the result is different.

The words used on the Lallemand website is, 71B "metabolizes" Malic acid. I read somewhere the metabolizing of 71B is different than MLF, as in not moving an X amount of Malic acid to Y amount of Lactic acid. Sorry, I can't remember specifically how and what.

In any case, 71B has other characteristics that can be used if desired. Namely, reducing TA, taming some tannins, and producing fruity aromas. The attached is an screen shot from the technical specs for 71B as an FYI to all. https://files.scottlab.com/uploads/LALVIN 71B TDS.pdf

 

[winemaker81]

The words used on the Lallemand website is, 71B "metabolizes" Malic acid. I read somewhere the metabolizing of 71B is different than MLF, as in not moving an X amount of Malic acid to Y amount of Lactic acid. Sorry, I can't remember specifically how and what.

That was my take, it's a different metabolic process.

I used 71B for my 2024 Vidal, and spilt the Chardonnel, doing half with 71B and half with QA23. Just because 71B eats some of the malic, there's not reason to not do MLF as well.

The cold weather grown F-A hybrids I started in 2024 really benefited from the reduced acid.

 

[BPL]

My goal is to emphasize the natural fruit flavor. If you add tartaric acid to blueberry wine, it won't taste as much like blueberries. This is an area that is often ignored. The type of acid you add will affect the final flavor.

I will agree that different acids used close to the acid type in the fruit will provide a closer experience to the fruit. I also agree that acidity is an area that is often ignored. I respectively disagree with the part about, "If you add tartaric acid to blueberry wine, it won't taste as much like blueberries." Yes, that can happen if other measures are not taken to enhance and retain the esters in the fruit.. An example would be using a neutral yeast and fermenting at 75*F+, with a single addition of DAP/Urea as a "yeast nutrient" on a summer day.

I make country wines all the time and use only tartaric acid to adjust acidity. What makes the difference (a big difference, I might add), are the methods used to hydrate specific yeasts for enhancing aromas and appropriate nutrients that aid cellular growth. The yeasts I'm referring to are D47, 1116, and perhaps D254. Where higher acids are involved, 71B is a fine candidate.

Products like GoFerm and Fermaid O enhance aromas when calculated (for example, the YAN FermCalc app) for volume, yeast type and starting brix, then judiciously applied, and fermented a few degrees above the lower end of the yeast's temperature range. The zinger is using a minimum amount of water, so as much juice as possible. When the very minimum amount of water is added, usually not much acid adjustment is needed.

Since many read this forum for learning purposes, I respectively suggest hydration with sterols, organic yeast nutrients, and specific yeast are used, as well as, minimum use of acids that give a sour or tart taste to the fruit be minimized. The application of these protocols and testing two identical samples of must using different acids, one with only tartaric acid and one with citric/malic acid will provide the vintner with a better understanding of what fits his/her palate the best.

One only has to look through the Scott Labs manual for pearls of wine making wisdom.

Barry

 

[Raptor99]

@BPL I agree with you that there are many factors affecting the final flavor of the wine.

The application of these protocols and testing two identical samples of must using different acids, one with only tartaric acid and one with citric/malic acid will provide the vintner with a better understanding of what fits his/her palate the best.

This is the sort of comparison that I had in mind. What would be the difference in flavor using different acids, with all other factors being exactly the same.

One test that I have considered doing sometime is to add a sample of tartaric, malic, and citric acid each to a different sample of water. You could look up the weight of acid to use to provide the same amount of acid in solution (as measured by a TA test). Then you might add a little sugar and some vodka, exactly the same amount in each container. That might provide a way to taste the difference in flavor contributed by different acids in a simulated wine environment.

 

[BPL]

@BPL I agree with you that there are many factors affecting the final flavor of the wine.

This is the sort of comparison that I had in mind. What would be the difference in flavor using different acids, with all other factors being exactly the same.

One test that I have considered doing sometime is to add a sample of tartaric, malic, and citric acid each to a different sample of water. You could look up the weight of acid to use to provide the same amount of acid in solution (as measured by a TA test). Then you might add a little sugar and some vodka, exactly the same amount in each container. That might provide a way to taste the difference in flavor contributed by different acids in a simulated wine environment.

I'm pretty sure the weights would be very close between tartaric, citric, and malic. However, it's the Hydrogen content is the biggest difference. I have not tested the two, but I'm pretty sure there would be vast differences of pH (a measure of Hydrogen) and TA between the two.

FWIW, I stopped using both malic and citric acids about 4 to 5 years ago. My focus has been enhancing aromas, tastes, and mouth feel. Organic nutrients and advanced temperature control has skyrocketed the tastes all of my wines.

Barry