Wild Grape Wine Questions

[ChuckD]

I remember seeing something about adding cranberry concentrate at the end on the skeeter pee site. That sound good too. I’m not expecting wine… just a light lemonade drink over ice.

 

[SeniorHobby]

When would I cold stabilize in the oaking/aging process? And I live in Wisconsin. Right now I could cold stabilize a bulk tank full of wine in the Unheated basement of my woodworking shop! It stays right around 32 degrees.

I'm with you on the cold stabilization Chuck, my thermometer showed a nice chilly -22 this morning. I'm in central Minnesota just a little SW of St Cloud. What part of Wisconsin are you from? Rice Guy is from the Madison area if I remember right. I am wondering if there are any central Minnesota wine clubs. Probably need to get a separate post going on that.

 

[ChuckD]

I believe you about the aging. I started my second batch of apple on Election Day last year and bottles it in early May. We had a family reunion in late September where most of it was consumed. Lots of compliments on it but I could taste a little bitter or sharp aftertaste. I had two bottles left and opened one a few days ago. No harsh aftertaste at all! I haven’t been keeping notes but it was a much better wine than what we were drinking even three months ago.

 

[ChuckD]

I'm with you on the cold stabilization Chuck, my thermometer showed a nice chilly -22 this morning. I'm in central Minnesota just a little SW of St Cloud. What part of Wisconsin are you from? Rice Guy is from the Madison area if I remember right. I am wondering if there are any central Minnesota wine clubs. Probably need to get a separate post going on that.

I’m about an hour north of Green Bay. I know there is a wine club in southern Wisconsin that meets around Milwaukee. To my knowledge nothing in north or central WI. I would like to get involved with one too. I find of the hardest things for me is trying to decipher tastes with nothing more than someone’s written description. Tasting lots of homemade wines would help with that.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Some native American grape varieties have that foxy taste. I've had Concord aged in oak that came out very nice. However, nothing you do is going to make it taste like Vinifera. I can make a pleasing wine, but CS and Merlot are not worried about competition.

I'd go light on oak. 28 lbs nets about 2 gallons, so it's heavily diluted to make 6 gallons. Try 1/2 to 1 oz oak cubes for a month or two. IME, over oaking a light bodied wine can produce a sharp oak after-bite.

Before bottling, bench test with glycerin (for body) and a light back sweetening.

Next year, don't add water. You'll get a lot less wine, but it will be fuller bodied.

I’m about an hour north of Green Bay. I know there is a wine club in southern Wisconsin that meets around Milwaukee. To my knowledge nothing in north or central WI. I would like to get involved with one too. I find of the hardest things for me is trying to decipher tastes with nothing more than someone’s written description. Tasting lots of homemade wines would help with that.

I get what you are saying as far as the tasting, another opinion is always useful and it is helpful to have someone who is in the winemaking hobby as they might have a better idea of what could be wrong based on the learning that has taken place already. I have not spent a lot of time at county fairs, but I've read that people have submitted wines to be judged at fairs. Next summer I will have to look into that if I can't find a club in our area before then.

 

[VinesnBines]

@ChuckD This is why you make multiple quick drinkers like skeeter pee or dragon blood. Then it's easier to let the wines that benefit from aging do their thing.

Hello VinesnBines,
Thanks for your input on the Skeeter Pee, I have no idea what it is but I would agree if it is thin & weak I probably wouldn't like it either. A question our your hard lemonade, how long do you let it age? I would be interested in the recipe if you wouldn't mind posting it.
Thanks,
Bernice

This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
Hard Lemonade
12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate
1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
7 teaspoons yeast nutrient
3 pounds corn sugar
2 packages of EC1118 or Nottingham yeast
Potassium Sorbate
Cane sugar
Rehydrate yeast with 1cup of warm water, 1 tablespoon of lemonade concentrate and a bit of yeast nutrient. Let rehydrate for 30 minutes.
For the wort mix the dry malt extract and corn sugar with 2 gallons of boiling water. After sugar is dissolved, remove from heat and add the rest of the yeast nutrient. Add 10 cans of the lemonade concentrate and cold water to make 5 gallons. Once cool, pitch the yeast. I ferment in a car boy with airlock. This is more beer than wine.
I let it ferment until it clears then I back-sweeten. After I rack to a bottling bucket, I add a mix of 4 cups of cane sugar, 2 cans lemonade concentrate, 3 cups of water and 3 1/2 teaspoons of potassium sorbate. You can use up to 8 cups of sugar but I find that too sweet. This is ready to drink on bottling day. I keg mine and don’t bother with the sorbate. You can make a million alternatives. I added a concentrate of hibiscus tea to my last batch. That was marvelous!

I don’t want to start a war over Skeeter Pee and Dragon Blood. I’m just offering an alternative.

 

[ChuckD]

I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.

I read several sources that recommended against too many wild grapes in the mix. I actually went a little high with mine because they were very sweet for wild grapes. I hope the foxy taste disappears. I guess time will tell. I’ll be looking at port recipes for ideas too.

I really like foraging and the idea of wild wines intrigues me! We’re getting a lot of exotic autumn berries (Elaeagnus umbellata) in my area and it has me thinking about trying them too.

 

[ChuckD]

When you say more beer than wine are you talking like the lemon flavored beers everyone has? If so I will pass. Lots of folks love them but I never liked fruity beer. Each to their own I say !

 

[ChuckD]

I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.

I have seen a lot of country wines blending rhubarb and fruit. Would this work with wild grape to make a rose-like wine? I’m not a fan of straight rhubarb (too plain), but I have access to nearly unlimited quantities of the stuff. I could make a batch and blend it with the grape wine. Before I do anything I think I’ll give it a year of bulk aging though.

 

[SeniorHobby]

This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
Hard Lemonade
12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate
1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
7 teaspoons yeast nutrient
3 pounds corn sugar
2 packages of EC1118 or Nottingham yeast
Potassium Sorbate
Cane sugar
Rehydrate yeast with 1cup of warm water, 1 tablespoon of lemonade concentrate and a bit of yeast nutrient. Let rehydrate for 30 minutes.
For the wort mix the dry malt extract and corn sugar with 2 gallons of boiling water. After sugar is dissolved, remove from heat and add the rest of the yeast nutrient. Add 10 cans of the lemonade concentrate and cold water to make 5 gallons. Once cool, pitch the yeast. I ferment in a car boy with airlock. This is more beer than wine.
I let it ferment until it clears then I back-sweeten. After I rack to a bottling bucket, I add a mix of 4 cups of cane sugar, 2 cans lemonade concentrate, 3 cups of water and 3 1/2 teaspoons of potassium sorbate. You can use up to 8 cups of sugar but I find that too sweet. This is ready to drink on bottling day. I keg mine and don’t bother with the sorbate. You can make a million alternatives. I added a concentrate of hibiscus tea to my last batch. That was marvelous!

I don’t want to start a war over Skeeter Pee and Dragon Blood. I’m just offering an alternative.

Thanks,
When did you add in the hibiscus tea and not being a tea drinker where did you find the hibiscus tea?

 

[SeniorHobby]

I have seen a lot of country wines blending rhubarb and fruit. Would this work with wild grape to make a rose-like wine? I’m not a fan of straight rhubarb (too plain), but I have access to nearly unlimited quantities of the stuff. I could make a batch and blend it with the grape wine. Before I do anything I think I’ll give it a year of bulk aging though.

I'm pretty new at it too, I have rhubarb in my freezer waiting till I get familiar enough with the wine making process to try a batch.

 

[VinesnBines]

When you say more beer than wine are you talking like the lemon flavored beers everyone has? If so I will pass. Lots of folks love them but I never liked fruity beer. Each to their own I say !

My recipe is a hard lemonade like Mike’s; the process is more like a beer. It is not a shandy or fruit beer but genuine hard lemonade. It does have malt in the mix but not boiled like a beer. It is similar to Skeeter Pee but I like it more.

Thanks,
When did you add in the hibiscus tea and not being a tea drinker where did you find the hibiscus tea?

I took hibiscus tea bags that I bought at the grocery and made a super strong tea. I recall I used three tea bags in 4 ounces of water. I steeped the tea for 5 minutes or so and added the “tea” to a gallon of my lemonade. I had nearly 6 gallons so I put 5 in my keg and added the hibiscus tea to the extra gallon and bottled that gallon.

 

[Jovimaple]

When you say you tweaked the recipe, are you talking about the Skeeter Pee or Dragon Blood. I would like the recipe for the hard lemonade, if you are willing to share.
Thanks!

I linked the original Skeeter Pee recipe (skeeterpee.com) as well as the thread here on WMT in my earlier post. That's more of a lemon wine - higher ABV than a hard lemonade. The original recipe is for 5 gallons. If I recall correctly, the original for Dragon Blood is also for 5 gallons. However, at the time I had only 3 gallon carboys, so I just tweaked the measurements a bit so it would be 6 gallons instead of 5. I did that for both SP and DB.

 

[ChuckD]

It is not a shandy or fruit beer but genuine hard lemonade

Sounds good. I’d like to try it with a mix of concentrated lemon and cranberry. When you list corn sugar is that corn syrup or just white sugar made from corn? Can you pick that up in any grocery store?

 

[Rice_Guy]

To your original post; “foxy“ is more of an aroma than a taste, it is the smell of really really ripe concord or niagara grape, foxy increases with ripening at 1.080 it is low, foxy is fruity/ aromatic.

I have seen a lot of country wines blending rhubarb and fruit. Would this work with wild grape to make a rose-like wine? I’m not a fan of straight rhubarb (too plain), but I have access to nearly unlimited quantities of the stuff. I could make a batch and blend it with the grape wine. Before I do anything I think I’ll give it a year of bulk aging though.

Wine is a balance of flavors, for this year I built long flavor notes into my rhurbarb by adding about 1% tannic crab apple. My rhubarb is mostly straight rhurbarb juice with a high TA around 1% and back sweetened to 1.015. (my rhubarb has won best of show/ water in rhubarb makes it weak) Another source for longer lasting (tannin like) flavors is cranberry, that said concord and cranberry make a good blend.
Clubs, Wausau has a group. ,, Jenny Craig Corkers ? If you call YeaLittleOldWinemakingShop of Wausau they should be able to tell you more about events otherwise I could hunt out a name for juice bucket purchasers from the Madison club. @SeniorHobby LaCrosse (on Mississippi River) has enough folks to have a wine contest and buy juice buckets out of Madison. Minnesota has quite a few Mississippi valley wineries (active vinters), and the extension program from Univ. of Minnesota, ,,, and an on campus winery to help Minnesota residents.

 

[ChuckD]

foxy“ is more of an aroma than a taste, it is the smell of really really ripe concord or niagara grape,

YES! This is what I am experiencing. It’s the aroma that carries it. The taste is not bad, just very simple… it tastes like Welches grape juice with alcohol to me. I’m just going to let it ride for a year or more. Hopefully oak and age will improve it. Question… if You’re aging a wine for a few years what is the ratio of bulk aging to bottle aging?

When you do pure rhubarb do you juice it or press it?

And thanks. I’ll look them up. It would be nice to taste some other wines and compare notes (for me ask questions mainly)

 

[VinesnBines]

Corn sugar is a loose powdered sugar that you need to buy from a beer and wine supply store. Corn syrup may be the liquid version but I’m not certain.

 

[JustJoe]

I have been making wine from wild grapes for several years with very good results. I use Lalvin 71b because it converts a significant amount of the malic acid to milder lactic acid much like the MLF process. The taste of the wine is very good but if you are defining good as 'how close is it to a good cabernet?' you will be disappointed. Some people have told me they prefer the wild grape wine over the cabernets. It is a different wine just as rhubarb or blackberry or elderberry make different wines and they are all very good wines when they are made well.

 

[Rice_Guy]

My rhubarb process is to freeze 1/2 inch dice for at least a week > then thaw and press > refreeze the juice in square cubitainers till ready with a carboy. ‘21 crop I did several yeast (ex Maurivin B) in a test to remove TA.

*it tastes like Welches grape juice with alcohol . . . Hopefully oak and age will improve it. Question… if You’re aging a wine for a few years what is the ratio of bulk aging to bottle aging?
*When you do pure rhubarb do you juice it or press it?

OPINION; foxy is a pleasing aroma which balances out low aroma fruit as elderberry or cranberry. For where you are I would look for cranberry from Three Lakes or Brigadoon or VonSteil wineries and and try ratios as 25%/ 50%/ 75% to see how the flavor balance changes.
Age will add complexity, ,,, at low levels acetaldehyde (oxidized ethanol) reminds me of dried apricots sharp notes, ,,, however if you start in that direction it builds to higher levels so I fight oxygen. Age seems to decrease the TA some via complexes between acids and alcohol which again changes the flavor profile. Age is an excellent tool if you are dealing with tannic notes and want them to soften (complex into larger molecules that fall out). From what you have posted it doesn’t sound like you are dealing with tannins.
I vote for chilling to drop potassium bitartrates out. One of the club members is a garage fermentor which means his carboys survive 28F and if you have a PET carboy I could see doing freezer temperatures. As a new wine maker I would not vote for tying up a carboy for two years, folks dealing with small/ astringent tannin molecules as choke cherry will age in the bottle. ,,,,, specifically to your question of the rate in bulk age versus bottle age, there are so many “it depends on” that I don’t think there is a straight answer.

 

[ChuckD]

OPINION; foxy is a pleasing aroma which balances out low aroma fruit as elderberry or cranberry. For where you are I would look for cranberry from Three Lakes or Brigadoon or VonSteil wineries

Yes again! When I pull a little out of the carboy for measurements it smells very good but when you stick your nose in the glass it’s too much! Alone or in a blend I’m sure I’ll be able to make something good out of this.

We like the wines from VonSteil. I joke to my wife that between her and the friends she has introduced to Three Lakes, when we go for a visit I expect to see at least a tasting room named in her honor . In fact my question about rhubarb wine is due to her tasting their strawberry rhubarb the other day. I have been tasked with making strawberry rhubarb and a blackberry wine… her Three Lakes favorite