Wild Grape Wine Questions

[winemaker81]

Question… if You’re aging a wine for a few years what is the ratio of bulk aging to bottle aging?

Some of our members bulk age up to 2 years, especially in barrels.

If you are aging in carboys or other non-oak containers? I don't see an advantage for aging longer than 12 months (which doesn't mean someone won't point one out). Wines age faster in the bottle, so it makes sense to bottle just before the next year's wine is ready for the carboy. For barrels, I bottle just before the new wine is ready for the barrel, as barrels must be kept full, either wine or a holding solution.

 

[ChuckD]

I vote for chilling to drop potassium bitartrates out. One of the club members is a garage fermentor which means his carboys survive 28F and if you have a PET carboy I could see doing freezer temperatures.

I have two of these. Would that work for cold crashing in freezing weather?

 

[winemaker81]

I have two of these. Would that work for cold crashing in freezing weather?

That should work fine.

Personally, don't let the wine freeze, as that damages it. The freezing point of wine is not a constant, as it depends on ABV and other constituents. I advise against letting the wine drop below 30 F. When cold stabilizing, I like 32-35, but anything under 40 F is sufficient.

I've had crystals drop during storage in the upper 50's F.

 

[Raptor99]

This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
Hard Lemonade
12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate
1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
7 teaspoons yeast nutrient
3 pounds corn sugar
2 packages of EC1118 or Nottingham yeast
Potassium Sorbate
Cane sugar
Rehydrate yeast with 1cup of warm water, 1 tablespoon of lemonade concentrate and a bit of yeast nutrient. Let rehydrate for 30 minutes.
For the wort mix the dry malt extract and corn sugar with 2 gallons of boiling water. After sugar is dissolved, remove from heat and add the rest of the yeast nutrient. Add 10 cans of the lemonade concentrate and cold water to make 5 gallons. Once cool, pitch the yeast. I ferment in a car boy with airlock. This is more beer than wine.
I let it ferment until it clears then I back-sweeten. After I rack to a bottling bucket, I add a mix of 4 cups of cane sugar, 2 cans lemonade concentrate, 3 cups of water and 3 1/2 teaspoons of potassium sorbate. You can use up to 8 cups of sugar but I find that too sweet. This is ready to drink on bottling day. I keg mine and don’t bother with the sorbate. You can make a million alternatives. I added a concentrate of hibiscus tea to my last batch. That was marvelous!

I don’t want to start a war over Skeeter Pee and Dragon Blood. I’m just offering an alternative.

Thanks for sharing your recipe. I don't brew beer, so I have some questions:
1. What does the malt extract add?
2. How is the flavor affected by using corn sugar vs. table sugar?
3. Do you carbonate it?

 

[VinesnBines]

I do carbonate in a keg. If you try to bottle carb you have to keep a watch on the carbonation level and then pasteurize the capped bottles in boiling water. I’ve never tried that and think it too much trouble. If I bottle, I bottle it still.
I’m not sure what the malt and corn sugar add other than a flavor profile that is different than Skeeter Pee which uses all cane sugar. Skeeter Pee is a lemon wine and my recipe is a maltier hard lemonade. It tastes a lot like Mikes Hard Lemonade and that’s my best explanation.

 

[Raptor99]

Thanks, I may have to try it with malt and corn sugar. Can anyone else tell me the flavor difference between corn sugar and cane sugar?

I don't have a keg, so I bottle carbonate.

 

[SeniorHobby]

My recipe is a hard lemonade like Mike’s; the process is more like a beer. It is not a shandy or fruit beer but genuine hard lemonade. It does have malt in the mix but not boiled like a beer. It is similar to Skeeter Pee but I like it more.

I took hibiscus tea bags that I bought at the grocery and made a super strong tea. I recall I used three tea bags in 4 ounces of water. I steeped the tea for 5 minutes or so and added the “tea” to a gallon of my lemonade. I had nearly 6 gallons so I put 5 in my keg and added the hibiscus tea to the extra gallon and bottled that gallon.

Thanks VinesnBines for the recipe, I think I will try that one!

 

[ChuckD]

My recipe is a hard lemonade like Mike’s; the process is more like a beer. It is not a shandy or fruit beer but genuine hard lemonade.

Thanks. I’ll definitely give this a try. I think I’ll split it at the end and try half lemon and half cranberry.

 

[SeniorHobby]

To your original post; “foxy“ is more of an aroma than a taste, it is the smell of really really ripe concord or niagara grape, foxy increases with ripening at 1.080 it is low, foxy is fruity/ aromatic.

Wine is a balance of flavors, for this year I built long flavor notes into my rhurbarb by adding about 1% tannic crab apple. My rhubarb is mostly straight rhurbarb juice with a high TA around 1% and back sweetened to 1.015. (my rhubarb has won best of show/ water in rhubarb makes it weak) Another source for longer lasting (tannin like) flavors is cranberry, that said concord and cranberry make a good blend.
Clubs, Wausau has a group. ,, Jenny Craig Corkers ? If you call YeaLittleOldWinemakingShop of Wausau they should be able to tell you more about events otherwise I could hunt out a name for juice bucket purchasers from the Madison club. @SeniorHobby LaCrosse (on Mississippi River) has enough folks to have a wine contest and buy juice buckets out of Madison. Minnesota has quite a few Mississippi valley wineries (active vinters), and the extension program from Univ. of Minnesota, ,,, and an on campus winery to help Minnesota residents.

Thanks Dave, I have thought the same thing about the wild grape wine, I don't like the smell, but the wine tastes fine. So do you think if I ferment a batch of cranberry wine & blend that it would loose the foxy smell.

I have been making wine from wild grapes for several years with very good results. I use Lalvin 71b because it converts a significant amount of the malic acid to milder lactic acid much like the MLF process. The taste of the wine is very good but if you are defining good as 'how close is it to a good cabernet?' you will be disappointed. Some people have told me they prefer the wild grape wine over the cabernets. It is a different wine just as rhubarb or blackberry or elderberry make different wines and they are all very good wines when they are made well.
Thanks Joe for the response, I did use the Lalvin 71b yeast so I hope my wine will turn out! It is still in the early stages of clearing so in time I will know.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Thanks, I may have to try it with malt and corn sugar. Can anyone else tell me the flavor difference between corn sugar and cane sugar?

I don't have a keg, so I bottle carbonate.

Ok, newbie here, what is the process to carbonate?

 

[SeniorHobby]

To your original post; “foxy“ is more of an aroma than a taste, it is the smell of really really ripe concord or niagara grape, foxy increases with ripening at 1.080 it is low, foxy is fruity/ aromatic.

Wine is a balance of flavors, for this year I built long flavor notes into my rhurbarb by adding about 1% tannic crab apple. My rhubarb is mostly straight rhurbarb juice with a high TA around 1% and back sweetened to 1.015. (my rhubarb has won best of show/ water in rhubarb makes it weak) Another source for longer lasting (tannin like) flavors is cranberry, that said concord and cranberry make a good blend.
Clubs, Wausau has a group. ,, Jenny Craig Corkers ? If you call YeaLittleOldWinemakingShop of Wausau they should be able to tell you more about events otherwise I could hunt out a name for juice bucket purchasers from the Madison club. @SeniorHobby LaCrosse (on Mississippi River) has enough folks to have a wine contest and buy juice buckets out of Madison. Minnesota has quite a few Mississippi valley wineries (active vinters), and the extension program from Univ. of Minnesota, ,,, and an on campus winery to help Minnesota residents.

Thanks Rice Guy for the help again, I would like to find something a little West of the Twin Cities metro regarding a wine club location. I would like to avoid driving the two hours and fighting the traffic if I could. Might have to if I strike out in my area.

 

[Raptor99]

Ok, newbie here, what is the process to carbonate?

I like my hard ciders sweetened and carbonated. I am aware of three ways to achieve that:

1. stabilze and sweeten, then carbonate in a keg
2. sweeten without stabilization, then pasteurize when the carbonation level is right
3. use a non-fermentable sweetener and bottle carbonate

I use #3 because I don't have a keg and it seems simplest to me. Before bottling, I sweeten with erythritol (Swerve brand) and add the appropriate amount of sugar for carbonation. This is "bottle carbonation" because the fermentation after bottling provides the CO2 for carbonation. You need to add the right amount of sugar, because if you add too much you will end up with "bottle bombs."

 

[SeniorHobby]

My rhubarb process is to freeze 1/2 inch dice for at least a week > then thaw and press > refreeze the juice in square cubitainers till ready with a carboy. ‘21 crop I did several yeast (ex Maurivin B) in a test to remove TA.

OPINION; foxy is a pleasing aroma which balances out low aroma fruit as elderberry or cranberry. For where you are I would look for cranberry from Three Lakes or Brigadoon or VonSteil wineries and and try ratios as 25%/ 50%/ 75% to see how the flavor balance changes.
Age will add complexity, ,,, at low levels acetaldehyde (oxidized ethanol) reminds me of dried apricots sharp notes, ,,, however if you start in that direction it builds to higher levels so I fight oxygen. Age seems to decrease the TA some via complexes between acids and alcohol which again changes the flavor profile. Age is an excellent tool if you are dealing with tannic notes and want them to soften (complex into larger molecules that fall out). From what you have posted it doesn’t sound like you are dealing with tannins.
I vote for chilling to drop potassium bitartrates out. One of the club members is a garage fermentor which means his carboys survive 28F and if you have a PET carboy I could see doing freezer temperatures. As a new wine maker I would not vote for tying up a carboy for two years, folks dealing with small/ astringent tannin molecules as choke cherry will age in the bottle. ,,,,, specifically to your question of the rate in bulk age versus bottle age, there are so many “it depends on” that I don’t think there is a straight answer.

Hi Rice Guy, I am assuming that you are suggesting buying a cranberry wine and blending his wild grape with it? As I am from Minnesota and we are not into the cranberry growing as Wisconsin area is, have you ever made cranberry wine from berries then blending?
Thanks!
Bernice

 

[SeniorHobby]

I like my hard ciders sweetened and carbonated. I am aware of three ways to achieve that:

1. stabilze and sweeten, then carbonate in a keg
2. sweeten without stabilization, then pasteurize when the carbonation level is right
3. use a non-fermentable sweetener and bottle carbonate

I use #3 because I don't have a keg and it seems simplest to me. Before bottling, I sweeten with erythritol (Swerve brand) and add the appropriate amount of sugar for carbonation. This is "bottle carbonation" because the fermentation after bottling provides the CO2 for carbonation. You need to add the right amount of sugar, because if you add too much you will end up with "bottle bombs."

Ok, a little more work than I thought. How is the flavor if you don't do the carbonation thing? Also, are there charts to know how much sugar to add? Not interested in blowing up bottles and making a mess of things!

 

[Rice_Guy]

The aromatic notes are easy to push out of a wine by fermenting closer to 75 or 80F. ,,,,, or if running a vacuum concentrator on Niagara grape tossing the aroma fraction from the condenser , ,,, the question then is what do you put in for aromatics? do you run cranberry in a primary at 60F and mix with the high temp grape that you blew the aroma off of?
I happen to like the foxy aroma so I let it in the wine but dilute it a bit with less aromatic juice. For guessing a target ratio I will bake pies with different fruit levels, ,,, yum! and sometimes the kids turn up their nose but its a lot better than waiting a year to taste the concept in a finished wine.

Thanks Dave, I have thought the same thing about the wild grape wine, I don't like the smell, but the wine tastes fine. So do you think if I ferment a batch of cranberry wine & blend that it would loose the foxy smell.

edit ~ I have access to cranberry juice either as freshly pressed from someone who drove up north or as a 32 oz concentrate at the store.
FYI hard apple cider folks have the priming sugar down to a formula

 

[Raptor99]

Ok, a little more work than I thought. How is the flavor if you don't do the carbonation thing? Also, are there charts to know how much sugar to add? Not interested in blowing up bottles and making a mess of things!

Here is a calculator: Beer Priming Sugar Calculator | Brewer's Friend It is for beer, but works as well for cider and mead. Another one is here: Homebrew Priming Sugar Calculator. One complication is how much CO2 is already dissolved in the wine. The first calculator above makes a certain assumption based on temperature, but if you vacuum degas you might have less starting CO2. That is something I am currently trying to figure out.

 

[wood1954]

When would I cold stabilize in the oaking/aging process? And I live in Wisconsin. Right now I could cold stabilize a bulk tank full of wine in the Unheated basement of my woodworking shop! It stays right around 32 degrees.

Make sure it stays above about 25, after enough time it will drop a lot of acid.

 

[VinesnBines]

How is the flavor if you don't do the carbonation thing?

SeniorHobby; still cider and lemonade are just as tasty uncarbonated. Nether one carbonated will hold a head like a beer and neither contain hops or heavy amounts of malt so they don't have a "flat" taste. Though the flat taste of beer is a trained taste. Think the difference in still wine and sparkling wine; still flavored water and sparkling water.
I only carbonate cider and lemonade in my keg. I didn't carbonate either until I got a keg and regulator. Another "cheat" method is to add a carbonated drink, ginger ale, Sprite, Mello Yellow, Mt Dew. I wonder if a carbonated soft drink machine would work? Anyone tried? Maybe that is in the wine carbonation thread.

Sorry to hijack but we got into the quick fement/fast drink discussion.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Here is a calculator: Beer Priming Sugar Calculator | Brewer's Friend It is for beer, but works as well for cider and mead. Another one is here: Homebrew Priming Sugar Calculator. One complication is how much CO2 is already dissolved in the wine. The first calculator above makes a certain assumption based on temperature, but if you vacuum degas you might have less starting CO2. That is something I am currently trying to figure out.

Thanks Raptor99! I will have to give it a try, still trying to understand the whole CO2 thing in wines, I also do not have a method to degas my wines so will have to do some research yet.

 

[SeniorHobby]

SeniorHobby; still cider and lemonade are just as tasty uncarbonated. Nether one carbonated will hold a head like a beer and neither contain hops or heavy amounts of malt so they don't have a "flat" taste. Though the flat taste of beer is a trained taste. Think the difference in still wine and sparkling wine; still flavored water and sparkling water.
I only carbonate cider and lemonade in my keg. I didn't carbonate either until I got a keg and regulator. Another "cheat" method is to add a carbonated drink, ginger ale, Sprite, Mello Yellow, Mt Dew. I wonder if a carbonated soft drink machine would work? Anyone tried? Maybe that is in the wine carbonation thread.

Sorry to hijack but we got into the quick fement/fast drink discussion.

No problem with the hijack VinesnBines, I'll take all the information I can get. I was a little concerned how soon I would try the recipe without knowing much about the carbonation thing, but glad to know that it will work either way. I am going to have to try it and down the road can looking into the carbonation thing.