Wine without sulfate

[satmuts]

I'm planing to use NovaLager Yeast with Winexpert Kit to avoid producing sulfate/sulfur . accurding to LalBrew NovaLager Yeast doesn't produce sulfur with alcohol tolerance 13%
however since sulfate works as preservative / antioxidant I'm planing to use ascorbic acid for that job instead .

What you think about the Idea ?

 

[Hazelemere]

If you age it longer than about 1 month it will start to oxidize and may grow mold or acetobacter which ascorbic acid has no impact on.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

At the risk of getting all chemistry professory...

The beer yeast that you mention prevents formation of H2S (hydrogen sulfide). The reagent that we use for protecting against oxdation and microbial growth is potassium metabisulfite (K-meta, KMBS). And these are both different from sulfate (as well as different from the element sulfur, though we sometimes colloquially refer to 'sulfuring the wine' when we add K-meta).

I'm not sure how this beer yeast will work for wine, but I would have no qualms about adding K-meta.

 

[satmuts]

At the risk of getting all chemistry professory...

The beer yeast that you mention prevents formation of H2S (hydrogen sulfide). The reagent that we use for protecting against oxdation and microbial growth is potassium metabisulfite (K-meta, KMBS). And these are both different from sulfate (as well as different from the element sulfur, though we sometimes colloquially refer to 'sulfuring the wine' when we add K-meta).

I'm not sure how this beer yeast will work for wine, but I would have no qualms about adding K-meta.

Great info . in that case I would use NovaLager yeast to avoid H2S and use Potassium Metabisulfite to protect against oxidation

 

[winemaker81]

Why are you concerned about hydrogen sulfide (H2S) if you're making a WE kit? Kits have sufficient nutrient -- the only H2S problems I've had has been with grapes using a high-nutrient yeast, and I don't know of anyone who's had a problem with a kit.

Beer yeast is called beer yeast for a reason -- it produces positive results for beer. DO NOT mix beer and wine making -- they are different and what applies to one does not necessarily apply to the other.

If you want a no-H2S yeast, go with Renaissance. However, given that you're in Saudi Arabia, access is probably limited. The kit probably includes EC-1118. Use that -- EC-1118 is the most commonly used yeast strain in kits as it's a workhorse that consistently produces a good result.

I suspect you read an article regarding H2S and it bothers you. Search this forum on the topic -- you'll find real information.

Note: The "regulars" on this forum include dozens of experienced winemakers. We spot check each other, and while you'll find that opinions vary (ask 10 winemakers a question, you'll get at least 11 opinions), verifiable facts don't.

Note 2: There is a huge difference between "sulfate" and "sulfite". In winemaking we use potassium metabisulfite (K-meta).

No offense intended, but your understanding of some of the concepts is incorrect.

DO NOT use ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is a strong one. K-meta is used because it's the most efficient solution. Ascorbic acid has a completely different use, and if used incorrectly it will make your wine undrinkable.

Please note that K-meta and H2S are COMPLETELY different compound. K-meta is a treatment for H2S. Navigate to my site (see my sig) and search for posts containing "H2S". This will help your understanding.

 

[satmuts]

Why are you concerned about hydrogen sulfide (H2S) if you're making a WE kit? Kits have sufficient nutrient -- the only H2S problems I've had has been with grapes using a high-nutrient yeast, and I don't know of anyone who's had a problem with a kit.

Beer yeast is called beer yeast for a reason -- it produces positive results for beer. DO NOT mix beer and wine making -- they are different and what applies to one does not necessarily apply to the other.

If you want a no-H2S yeast, go with Renaissance. However, given that you're in Saudi Arabia, access is probably limited. The kit probably includes EC-1118. Use that -- EC-1118 is the most commonly used yeast strain in kits as it's a workhorse that consistently produces a good result.

I suspect you read an article regarding H2S and it bothers you. Search this forum on the topic -- you'll find real information.

Note: The "regulars" on this forum include dozens of experienced winemakers. We spot check each other, and while you'll find that opinions vary (ask 10 winemakers a question, you'll get at least 11 opinions), verifiable facts don't.

Note 2: There is a huge difference between "sulfate" and "sulfite". In winemaking we use potassium metabisulfite (K-meta).

No offense intended, but your understanding of some of the concepts is incorrect.

DO NOT use ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is a strong one. K-meta is used because it's the most efficient solution. Ascorbic acid has a completely different use, and if used incorrectly it will make your wine undrinkable.

Please note that K-meta and H2S are COMPLETELY different compound. K-meta is a treatment for H2S. Navigate to my site (see my sig) and search for posts containing "H2S". This will help your understanding.

Thanks a lot mate . Great answer and Explain a lot . and Yes I'm new to Wine making . i have done many beer but this is the First Wine kit planing to do

 

[winemaker81]

Thanks a lot mate . Great answer and Explain a lot . and Yes I'm new to Wine making . i have done many beer but this is the First Wine kit planing to do

Happy to be of service!

 

[Rice_Guy]

I should start with welcome to Wine Making Talk

One can make an acceptable tasting red wine with no metabisulphite. Tannin in grape skins acts as an antioxidant. Likewise tannic apples can make an acceptable cider or apple wine. My first step in trying to eliminate metabisulphite would be to include enough tannin such that on year one it wouldn’t be balanced, you would need some age on it for the tannins to polymerize/ become flavorless. Flavor wise, tannins and acids balance against sugar and alcohol (sweet flavors) so another answer would be design an early drinking sweet wine.

Building in shelf life is harder without having SO2, (active form of metabisulphite). You can improve acceptable flavor by running low pH as 3.0 to 3.3 and running high alcohol as 18%. The defect which I don’t like is acetaldehyde (from excess oxygen) limited oxygen will oxidize to a sherry/ nutty flavor which some folks like. A little acetaldehyde is normal and adds complexity/ a sharper dried apricot like flavor. The issue is above 20ppm when it can dominate the flavor. ,,, If the issue is sulphites and allergies note that yeast produce some sulphites which helps them kill off competitors, all wine will have a few ppm.

Ascorbic acid is fast reacting. As a result it doesn’t help a lot with shelf life. As Bryan noted ascorbic acid doesn’t kill bacteria so your risk of infection increases. I will differ with Bryan though, yes ascorbic is acidic but my guess is you would add ppm levels and not kill the flavor. ,,, We don’t have a good model of how ascorbic acid based home wine would be put together so this is trial by fire. The guess on my part is that starting with tannins and adding a few ppm ascorbic acid at each racking you could maintain taste and produce shelf life, ,,, especially if your crop/ equipment is clean so that infection risk is low.

As asked above, why skip the metabisulphite? The system works and is quite foolproof. If you have a reason then it is worth trying ONE batch.

 

[BigDaveK]

Welcome to WMT, @satmuts !
A pleasant wine can be made following a recipe without too much thought. And as you see from the above posts, you can dig a little and learn a lot and - I think - enjoy and appreciate the hobby even more. It's up to you. Either way, good luck and have fun.
BTW, something tells me there aren't too many homebrew stores for supplies in Saudi Arabia.

 

[winemanden]

I should start with welcome to Wine Making Talk

One can make an acceptable tasting red wine with no metabisulphite. Tannin in grape skins acts as an antioxidant. Likewise tannic apples can make an acceptable cider or apple wine. My first step in trying to eliminate metabisulphite would be to include enough tannin such that on year one it wouldn’t be balanced, you would need some age on it for the tannins to polymerize/ become flavorless. Flavor wise, tannins and acids balance against sugar and alcohol (sweet flavors) so another answer would be design an early drinking sweet wine.

Building in shelf life is harder without having SO2, (active form of metabisulphite). You can improve acceptable flavor by running low pH as 3.0 to 3.3 and running high alcohol as 18%. The defect which I don’t like is acetaldehyde (from excess oxygen) limited oxygen will oxidize to a sherry/ nutty flavor which some folks like. A little acetaldehyde is normal and adds complexity/ a sharper dried apricot like flavor. The issue is above 20ppm when it can dominate the flavor. ,,, If the issue is sulphites and allergies note that yeast produce some sulphites which helps them kill off competitors, all wine will have a few ppm.

Ascorbic acid is fast reacting. As a result it doesn’t help a lot with shelf life. As Bryan noted ascorbic acid doesn’t kill bacteria so your risk of infection increases. I will differ with Bryan though, yes ascorbic is acidic but my guess is you would add ppm levels and not kill the flavor. ,,, We don’t have a good model of how ascorbic acid based home wine would be put together so this is trial by fire. The guess on my part is that starting with tannins and adding a few ppm ascorbic acid at each racking you could maintain taste and produce shelf life, ,,, especially if your crop/ equipment is clean so that infection risk is low.

As asked above, why skip the metabisulphite? The system works and is quite foolproof. If you have a reason then it is worth trying ONE batch.

One problem with Ascorbic acid I that with whites it has a tendency to cause a brownish tinge to white wines!

 

[satmuts]

Welcome to WMT, @satmuts !
A pleasant wine can be made following a recipe without too much thought. And as you see from the above posts, you can dig a little and learn a lot and - I think - enjoy and appreciate the hobby even more. It's up to you. Either way, good luck and have fun.
BTW, something tells me there aren't too many homebrew stores for supplies in Saudi Arabia.

Thanks mate . yes there is no homebrew stores in the whole gulf region . i do all my orders via eBay as it's the only market available to us for such ingredients

 

[MHSKIBUM]

This isn't about beer or wine but it may have application for a batch of Rumtopf I'm planning to start in the late spring. Rumtopf is a delicious way to preserve fruit in rum.
We made it for several years but then stopped when two batches in a row ended up with mold growing on top. Before Christmas, we had to toss all that lovely alcohol-enhanced fruit we'd been preserving since the spring.
We'd always been careful to select unbruised, unmarked fruit and added the recommended quantity of alcohol and sugar.
Since taking up winemaking, I've been thinking: Should I wash the fruit in a K-Meta solution before adding it to the pot? Perhaps an 1/8 tpsn of K-Meta in the 2 gallon pot?
Any thoughts out there?

 

[Rice_Guy]

but then stopped when two batches in a row ended up with mold growing on top. Before Christmas, we had to toss all that lovely alcohol-enhanced fruit we'd been preserving since the spring.
Any thoughts out there?

Mold is an aerobic organism. To grow it needs to have oxygen. This leads to a few choices as 1) reduce the head space 2) carbonate the rum when you start the batch and then seal the jar 3) add argon and seal the jar, what mom would do 4) melt some paraffin wax and layer it on the mixture 5) layer olive oil on the mixture