WM81 Fall 2023 Experiments

[winemaker81]

Last night I bottled the last of the Vidal-Orange, which I'm referring to as "part 2". I netted 18 bottles from that, which received K-meta, glycerin, sorbate, and sugar.

Per usual I don't rack containers all the way to the bottle, and the bit of sediment in an extra 4 liter jug was stirred up. After bottling the main part, I poured all remaining wine through coffee filters and bottled "as is", meaning no sulfite, glycerin, sorbate, or sugar. These two bottles are marked separately and will be used first, probably for cooking. Although pouring a tsp of Agave nectar into the glass and filling with wine works quite well!

Last night I went through my "Wine In Detail" blogs, cleaning up a lot of details. The 2023 Metheglin and Chambourcin will be finalized when I bottle those wines in the next few months. However, once they are done I'm not seeing a reason to write more. The In Detail blogs are a fair amount of work, and I try to make them all different in focus, and at this time I can't think of anything that would differentiate a new wine enough to make it worth writing about.

IMO the Vidal in Detail blog has 2 useful points:

1. Contrasting a white wine made from juice and made from fruit (fermented on the skins).

2. Differences between various containers of the same batch. In this case different containers of the Vidal-Orange needing different amounts of sugar to balance the acid.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/2023-vidal-in-detail/

 

[winemaker81]

I need to bottle last fall's Chambourcin. I'm still debating how to handle the slightly acidic taste. One choice it potassium bicarbonate, and another is slight backsweetening.

I added 1/4 cup sugar per 4 liters Vidal, leaving the wine off-dry and addressing the acid.

Since I have 9 gallons of Chambourcin, I may try both approaches.

 

[mainshipfred]

Glycerol has a tendency to mask a high acid wine without the need to use sorbates.

 

[winemaker81]

Glycerol has a tendency to mask a high acid wine without the need to use sorbates.

Good tip.

I tried that with my first bottling of Vidal in March -- it helped, but there was too much acid for it to fully address the acid. That batch is being sweetened by the glass.

Given that I have not made a French-American hybrid since ~1991, I'm having to relearn things. Plus we are doing things today we were not doing 30+ years ago. Glycerin was available, but it was expensive.

 

[Guasto-IS]

Be extremely careful and carefully dose (use very minimal) potassium bicarbonate as it can leave a metallic taste in the wine afterwards.

 

[winemaker81]

Be extremely careful and carefully dose (use very minimal) potassium bicarbonate as it can leave a metallic taste in the wine afterwards.

I've been told that -- and I'm happy you're repeating the warning. My dad said it's better to be warned one time too many rather than one time too few.

My thought is to initially add about 1/4 of what I think it needs, as it's easier to add more than take some out.

 

[Guasto-IS]

I've been told that -- and I'm happy you're repeating the warning. My dad said it's better to be warned one time too many rather than one time too few.

My thought is to initially add about 1/4 of what I think it needs, as it's easier to add more than take some out.

When I experimented with K-bicarb to bring down pH of a red, I set-up 4x 375mL bottles, each with differing amounts of bicarb. After stirring (off-gas) and sealing bottles with saran wrap, I let the wine bottles sit for 1-2 days to adjust. Taste each the wine every day for a few days and evaluate which is best tasting for acidity, metallic tasting and for presence saltiness. You should be able to find the optimal dosage.

 

[winemaker81]

When I experimented with K-bicarb to bring down pH of a red, I set-up 4x 375mL bottles, each with differing amounts of bicarb. After stirring (off-gas) and sealing bottles with saran wrap, I let the wine bottles sit for 1-2 days to adjust. Taste each the wine every day for a few days and evaluate which is best tasting for acidity, metallic tasting and for presence saltiness. You should be able to find the optimal dosage.

Good idea!

 

[Guasto-IS]

Good idea!

Let us know how it turns out

 

[tullamore]

question
i'm thinking adding adding oak chips during fermentation to one of my batches this year - never dd
i have neutral barrels that i had for many years
i usually add the chips after 1.5-2 years when i rack into carboys
how much to add during the fermentation?
this experiment will be 12 lugs - i was thinking about 3 cups???
thoughts???

 

[winemaker81]

question
i'm thinking adding adding oak chips during fermentation to one of my batches this year - never dd
i have neutral barrels that i had for many years
i usually add the chips after 1.5-2 years when i rack into carboys
how much to add during the fermentation?
this experiment will be 12 lugs - i was thinking about 3 cups???
thoughts???

The instructions on the toasted shredded oak I use says 2 to 3 cups per 6 gallons, which I translated into 3/4 to 1 cup per 36 lb lug.

 

[tullamore]

interesting - i always used 1/4 cup per carboy (18.9 litres) - i always tend to go less -add more if needed
i will try ur numbers to see
don't want the Oak Monster to creep in
i love oak - but ...... when that monster creeps in - there's no turning back

 

[winemaker81]

interesting - i always used 1/4 cup per carboy (18.9 litres) - i always tend to go less -add more if needed
i will try ur numbers to see
don't want the Oak Monster to creep in
i love oak - but ...... when that monster creeps in - there's no turning back

IME fermentation oak contributes no oak character. Keep in mind the duration is typically 4 to 8 days. I wrote the following post a couple of years ago, after conducting an experiment and reading various sources.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/fermentation-vs-aging-oak/

 

[tullamore]

IME fermentation oak contributes no oak character. Keep in mind the duration is typically 4 to 8 days. I wrote the following post a couple of years ago, after conducting an experiment and reading various sources.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/fermentation-vs-aging-oak/

good read
thks for ur input

 

[winemaker81]

Update on the Vidal -- the Juice produced 3 gallons, so my son, niece, and I each got 5 bottles. It came out good, although it's acidic. We tried adding a lot of glycerin, but that didn't really fix it, so as mentioned above, I backsweeten in the glass with a small squirt of Agave nectar.

I'm very pleased with it.

The Orange? The three of us like it better, but we're all primarily red drinkers, so the heavier body is appreciated. I need to open a bottle of each together and do a direct comparison.

As a result of this experiment, in the near future we'll be purchasing from @VinesnBines enough Vidal to make 2 carboys and Chardonnel to make 1. All will be fermented on the skins. Plus I'm considering trying MLF on them.

 

[winemaker81]

Today my son, his girlfriend, and I bottled the Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc. Over a year ago we planned this, trying to reproduce McGregor Winery's Rob Roy Red, which is a Cabernet Franc-based wine. So we have CF and CS in barrel, and Merlot in glass. Our rough plan was 2 blends:

CF 60%, CS 30%, Merlot 10%
CS 60%, CF 30%, Merlot 10%

Today we racked all 3 wines, added K-meta and glycerin, and made samples at the above percentages. We figured we'd make additional samples based upon what we liked. My son's GF is a newbie and her opinions are a nice counterpoint (this is positive, as she doesn't have preconceived notions), but my son and I have been doing this a long time, so we were confident we'd nail things down quickly.

Plan A failed badly. VERY badly. We hated both blends.

The CS and Merlot were a distraction in the CF-based blend. The CF horribly overshadowed the CS in the CS-based blend.

Based upon our dislike of the CS-based blend, we decided to try a different CS-blend: 80% CS, 10% CF, 10% Merlot. We'd accent the CS with the other wines.

WOW! The two secondary wines shored up any deficiencies in the CS. We didn't bother trying to fine tune it. Assuming we had 14 gallons of CS (it's a 54 liter barrel) we added 1.5 gallons each of CF and Merlot, and bottled. Yes, we tasted the real blend, and it matched the sample.

Why didn't we fine tune it? The opposite of "good" is not "bad". It's "better". We loved the 80/10/10 blend and didn't waste effort making it "better".

The CF? We bottled it as a varietal. This is totally unplanned, but we went by the tastings.

We have 4 gallons of Merlot, 1 gallon of remnants from the barrels (mixed CS + CF), and 5 gallons of a CS/Merlot (2 to 1 ratio). We're probably going to Frankenwine that. [That means blend it and not worry about it.]

It occurred to me that non-winemakers can't visualize 10 gallons of wine ... and we're just saying "well, it doesn't matter, it's just cooking wine if we don't like it."

 

[winemaker81]

I forgot to mention that Tuesday night my son & I bottled the 2023 Chambourcin.

We originally fermented in 2 batches, with Avante and Bravo, respectively. At pressing time we reserved 1.5 liters of each batch for later comparison. The first thing we did was bottle 750 ml each wine. The remainder was added to the main batch. We tasted the wines at that time -- the Bravo was fruitier while the Avante was less acidic.

Next we racked the 12 and 23 liter carboys into a 20 gallon Brute. It's just a bit acidic, so we added 15 oz glycerin and 1/2 tsp K-meta.

There was still something off about, so we added 1 gallon of the 2023 Merlot. THAT made a difference! 10% Merlot gave it more depth.

Today we pressed the Pinot Noir and Vidal, and considered bottling the remaining 2023 wine: We have 12 liters of Merlot and 19 liters of Cabernet Sauvignon & Merlot (3 to 2 ratio). We considered bottling it today, but ran out of time and energy. Another night ...

Although I've posted the labels in the Labels thread, I figure this is also a good place!

 

[Venatorscribe]

Today my son, his girlfriend, and I bottled the Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Franc. Over a year ago we planned this, trying to reproduce McGregor Winery's Rob Roy Red, which is a Cabernet Franc-based wine. So we have CF and CS in barrel, and Merlot in glass. Our rough plan was 2 blends:

CF 60%, CS 30%, Merlot 10%
CS 60%, CF 30%, Merlot 10%

Today we racked all 3 wines, added K-meta and glycerin, and made samples at the above percentages. We figured we'd make additional samples based upon what we liked. My son's GF is a newbie and her opinions are a nice counterpoint (this is positive, as she doesn't have preconceived notions), but my son and I have been doing this a long time, so we were confident we'd nail things down quickly.

Plan A failed badly. VERY badly. We hated both blends.

The CS and Merlot were a distraction in the CF-based blend. The CF horribly overshadowed the CS in the CS-based blend.

Based upon our dislike of the CS-based blend, we decided to try a different CS-blend: 80% CS, 10% CF, 10% Merlot. We'd accent the CS with the other wines.

WOW! The two secondary wines shored up any deficiencies in the CS. We didn't bother trying to fine tune it. Assuming we had 14 gallons of CS (it's a 54 liter barrel) we added 1.5 gallons each of CF and Merlot, and bottled. Yes, we tasted the real blend, and it matched the sample.

Why didn't we fine tune it? The opposite of "good" is not "bad". It's "better". We loved the 80/10/10 blend and didn't waste effort making it "better".

The CF? We bottled it as a varietal. This is totally unplanned, but we went by the tastings.

We have 4 gallons of Merlot, 1 gallon of remnants from the barrels (mixed CS + CF), and 5 gallons of a CS/Merlot (2 to 1 ratio). We're probably going to Frankenwine that. [That means blend it and not worry about it.]

It occurred to me that non-winemakers can't visualize 10 gallons of wine ... and we're just saying "well, it doesn't matter, it's just cooking wine if we don't like it."

You know what’s going to happen here ! - after about two years your Frankenwine blend will be the clear winner. Thanks for an interesting post. I basically blend all my reds these days. Depending on what I have in bulk in the shed … but basically the standard Merlot, CabSav and Malbec. Have occasionally blended in some Grenache or Syrah. My taste buds have taken the occasional thrashing … but my single biggest learning is to give my blends extra time to comingle and develop. I like how you have added glycerol. It makes a big difference doesn’t it. I also treat my blends with gum arabic. I have found that glycerol and gum arabic working together really helps to displace some of the sharp edges associated with blending different varietals.

I wish I could get my hands on cab franc. Where I live the vineyards are not interested in releasing any CF stock. However I have a friend who managed to acquire some CF grapes one year. He made and bottled a 100%CF wine. Five years down the track - it is the most beautiful tasting wine. Cheers for writing up your blending exploits. Craig

 

[winemaker81]

I'm having fun writing the thread and am happy you're enjoying it. This one is written for experienced WMT members, plus members who will be experienced.

On my site I'm writing a more detailed blog that is geared more towards the general public.

You know what’s going to happen here ! - after about two years your Frankenwine blend will be the clear winner.

That's entirely possible. I won't complain if it happens!

I have not tried gum arabic, but have heard of it -- I need to explore that.

Getting good grapes (or any grapes) is tough for a lot of folks. My CA grapes are shipped 3,000 miles east, then another 500 miles south to get here. The French-American hybrids are a 4 hour drive each way. But it's worth it!

 

[VinesnBines]

I really appreciate the plug for good grapes. It is a challenge to keep everything clean and in good condition.

The French/American hybrids can be tricky to ferment. All in all, the whites may be a little easier. The reds will need MLF and oak to soften the acids. And a Bryan noted, blending the F/A with small amounts of vinifera can change meh to fantastic.

This is a shameless plug for selling 2025 fruit. We can deliver or meet as needed. We are in Glade Spring, VA 24340.