WM81 Fall 2024 Experiments

[winemaker81]

Last fall's experiments proved that different strains of yeast may produce significantly different results, e.g., I used Renaissance Avante and Bravo in different batches of Cabernet Franc and Chambourcin, and the wines produced by each strain are different. Not necessarily better, but different.

I have no idea what is happening with the Durham grape buying group. The main coordinator has not responded to multiple emails, and last year's primary coordinator said he hadn't been able to contact him, either, and I haven't heard from him in 2 weeks. Hopefully they're not having anything bad happening.

So ... we're going with Plan B. I learned to have backup plans when it comes to winemaking.

Our main problem is lack of a crusher/destemmer. I can buy CA grapes from Gino PInto in Ashland VA, but have no good way to crush 16 lugs of grapes. I have a #40 press, which is a good size for the batches we make. I also have a manual crusher ... that is a whopping 10" wide. I have used it to crush grapes, but the effort necessary to crush 16 lugs with it is not something I'm interested in.

Last year I purchased Chambourcin from @VinesnBines, and she, her husband, and I crushed at her Glade Spring vineyard. After discussing it with my son and niece, we decided to go mostly with her grapes, planning to purchase 8 lugs each Chambourcin and Chelois. For the third barrel we plan to buy 2 buckets Pinot Noir from GP in Ashland to ferment with the Chambourcin/Chelois pomace. If that doesn't line up, we'll buy 3 buckets and commercial skin packs.

For Chambourcin and Chelois, we're leaning towards using all Avante, as it eats malic acid. However, I have a lot of Bravo left from the last purchase, so we may use it on some.

We will inoculate with Lalvin 31 MLB, so the need to use all Avante is low. The PN will probably be different yeast in different buckets.

Additionally, we're planning 2 carboys of Vidal and 1 of Chardonnel, and both will be fermented on the skins. I'm considering adding Lalvin 31 to both, which will require lysozyme if we decided to backsweeten.

In the past I've mentioned our "5 year plan" where we don't make the same red twice within 5 years. The 2023 Chambourcin was fermented with Avante/Bravo and aged in glass. The 2024 Chambourcin will have MLF and barrel aging, so it will be a completely different wine.

 

[winemaker81]

@winemaker81 Is this a good place for all of us to post our 2024 winemaking updates? I do not want to steal your thread.

I don't mind if you post here.

My threads are about learning -- me offering the means and results of my experiments, while getting feedback and ideas from others. This activity serves double-duty, as when teaching or explaining something to others requires understanding the matter being discussed. This forces me to think things through, and hopefully does the same for others.

The drawback to you posting here is that your updates may get lost in the thread. Last years Experiments threads is currently up to 6 pages, and there's been a lot of activity recently.

I re-read my first post, and the "experiments" part is 2 things:

1. Using MLF for the first time.
2. Fermenting Pinot Noir juice with F-A hybrid pomace.

I'm considering fermenting a small amount of both Chambourcin and Chelois separately, and saving 4 liters of each which don't get MLB. I'd like to experience the difference between the wines.

Fermenting PN juice with F-A hybrid pomace is maybe not so much an experiment, as it is a hope-n-prayer. If it doesn't turn out well, we'll have 16 gallons of cooking wine ...

 

[VinesnBines]

I don't mind if you post here.

My threads are about learning -- me offering the means and results of my experiments, while getting feedback and ideas from others. This activity serves double-duty, as when teaching or explaining something to others requires understanding the matter being discussed. This forces me to think things through, and hopefully does the same for others.

The drawback to you posting here is that your updates may get lost in the thread. Last years Experiments threads is currently up to 6 pages, and there's been a lot of activity recently.

I re-read my first post, and the "experiments" part is 2 things:

1. Using MLF for the first time.
2. Fermenting Pinot Noir juice with F-A hybrid pomace.

I'm considering fermenting a small amount of both Chambourcin and Chelois separately, and saving 4 liters of each which don't get MLB. I'd like to experience the difference between the wines.

Fermenting PN juice with F-A hybrid pomace is maybe not so much an experiment, as it is a hope-n-prayer. If it doesn't turn out well, we'll have 16 gallons of cooking wine ...

Of all the F-A hybrids, Chambourcin and Chelois should be the best for “second” run or re-using the pomace. I reused Chambourcin pomace with a Cab Sav kit and it is coming along nicely. The 22 Chelois was macerated for three weeks with no off flavors so l plan to macerate the 24 Chelois at least as long or perhaps four weeks; depending on circumstances.

I have a Pinot Noir kit that I was planning to use on my Marquette but I may wait and use it on the Chambourcin and Chelois pomace. Then we can compare results.

 

[winemaker81]

Of all the F-A hybrids, Chambourcin and Chelois should be the best for “second” run or re-using the pomace. I reused Chambourcin pomace with a Cab Sav kit and it is coming along nicely. The 22 Chelois was macerated for three weeks with no off flavors so l plan to macerate the 24 Chelois at least as long or perhaps four weeks; depending on circumstances.

I have a Pinot Noir kit that I was planning to use on my Marquette but I may wait and use it on the Chambourcin and Chelois pomace. Then we can compare results.

My son & I have conflicting weekend travel plans, so we're figuring we'll need to do some work during weeknight evenings. It looks like there will be a gap between the Chelois and the PN buckets we are ordering -- if I let the wine macerate an additional week, that may solve the problem.

I have 1.5 liter bottles of 2023 Chambourcin, made with Avante and Bravo, respectively. I need to compare that to the blend of the two that was glass aged with oak cubes.

This fall I was thinking of using only Avante for the Chambourcin and Chelois, but since I'm using Lalvin 31, the malic acid eating ability of the Avante should be less critical. For this fall, I need to preserve a couple bottles of each grape with each yeast, and compare that with an blend that was treated with Lalvin 31.

Except ... the blend will be barrel aged. It means a lot of batches to keep track of. I may bottle 2 bottles of each at the 4-5 month mark, so they are well labeled, and do a taste test 3 months after the barrels are bottled.

 

[winemaker81]

A warning to all everyone making multiple batches -- label each and every container! No matter how good you believe your memory is, it's not that good.

Granted, I can usually figure out what each container is by smell and/or taste, but it's far easier to keep a roll of painter's tape and a black Sharpie handy ...

 

[Obbnw]

A warning to all everyone making multiple batches -- label each and every container! No matter how good you believe your memory is, it's not that good.

Granted, I can usually figure out what each container is by smell and/or taste, but it's far easier to keep a roll of painter's tape and a black Sharpie handy ...

I use a silver sharpie
; )

At the very end of the season (Sept to June for me) I get lazy and think I'll remember and inevitably forget.

 

[winemaker81]

I use a silver sharpie

I will check if we have one!

We have a small plastic cabinet with tons of school supplies, all leftovers from our children (who are grown). I need to find a teacher to donate them.

 

[winemaker81]

For us, grape season officially started yesterday -- my son & I left the house at 6AM. The load included almost all of our containers, plus 4 cases of empties for Beth (@VinesnBines). I've been saving bottles I don't want, instead of recycling them.



We arrived at Highland Meadow Vineyard just before 10 AM. Once there we crushed 300 lbs each Chambourcin and Chelois, and 125 lbs Chardonnel.

The Chardonnel was frozen a few weeks ago, and started defrosting Thursday.



This year the crusher is motorized, which is much easier than hand cranking, especially for 725 lbs of grapes.



The Chelois look great!



Unfortunately, the Vidal were not ripe, so we have to wait on those. This is actually fortunate, as we underestimated storage capacity. The Pilot was filled to the brim with containers!

 

[mainshipfred]

I bought a motorized unit earlier and what a difference it makes. I can't say for sure if it's the motor or the unit but I got very few jack stems.

 

[winemaker81]

I bought a motorized unit earlier and what a difference it makes. I can't say for sure if it's the motor or the unit but I got very few jack stems.

My snarky comment is that the difference is my shoulders and back!

My non-snarky thought? The motor provides consistent rotation of all parts, and that may make the difference.

 

[winemaker81]

I made the yeast starters this morning at 7 AM, as I was out of energy last night. At 5 PM I inoculated, figuring 10 hours was sufficient. The plan is to allow the yeast to reproduce enough to have a larger initial colony. The Chelois and Chambourcin are both fermenting with indigenous yeast, so I want my yeast to dominate. A larger initial colony makes that happen.

This morning I made 6 starters:

QA23 and 71B for Chardonnel

two each Renaissance Avante and Bravo for the Chambourcin and Chelois. For each grape I'm fermenting 2 yeast in separate batches, and blending post-fermentation.

The Bravo is REALLY active:



I like using bottles I haven't soaked the label off yet, as I can write on the label with a Sharpie. For the reds I used A (Avante) and B (Bravo).

I'll wait until tomorrow afternoon, then start punching down 3 to 4 times each day.

 

[winemaker81]

@Snafflebit, you like the picture???

On the plus side, all my yeast are clearly viable!!!

 

[Snafflebit]

Looks familiar. You know the yeast is good.

 

[winemaker81]

When I walked into the kitchen this morning, I could smell fermentation. That means it's a strong aroma, as scent has to travel from the cellar area through an outer room, up the steps, and through 2 other rooms to get to the kitchen. All 6 containers are well underway!

I considered using RC-212 for one batch each of the reds, as RC-212 does good things. But both were already fermenting with indigenous yeast, and I decided to go with Renaissance strains as there is no chance of H2S.

The Avante is a couple years old, but it foamed up within 10 minutes of creating the starters, so that's good.

I need to read the package for Lalvin 31, as I'm inoculating with MLB this year. I'm going to do all 3 varietals, including the Chardonnel.

 

[winemaker81]

Last night I did the first punch down -- all 6 batches have a very strong cap. I didn't bother checking SG yet. That will happen later today.

Last night was also time to inoculate with Lalvin 31. I read the package directions and looked at the vendor site as well. It says it's best to rehydrate, but for no more than 10 minutes. Interesting.

Then I had to figure out how to divide the package -- it's good for 66 gallons of wine, but the amount of material is tiny. I have 6 batches, two are 63 lbs while the other four are 150 lbs. Plus the Vidal has not yet arrived.

I reserve a small amount of the MLB and dissolved the remainder in water. Then I added 1 part to each Chardonnel batch and 2 parts to each Chambourcin and Chelois batch.

At that point I realized I had not added fermentation oak! I checked ... all I have is most of a pound! Yup, I thought of everything else, but didn't check oak supplies. I thought I had 2 lbs left, but nope!

So I added 1 cup to each Chambourcin and 2 cups to each Chelois. Then I ordered 2 lbs from a company that I last ordered from -- the package arrives Thursday.

Due to personal schedules, we won't press the reds until a week from Saturday, so we'll have roughly a 1 week EM. That will give the fermentation oak sufficient time to do its thing.

 

[Snafflebit]

Are you using untoasted oak for fermentation? I used medium toast oak chips in my Zin and now it tastes a little smoky.

 

[winemaker81]

Are you using untoasted oak for fermentation? I used medium toast oak chips in my Zin and now it tastes a little smoky.

Medium toast. When I did a fermentation oak test a couple of years ago, there was a short term difference in taste between American, French, and Hungarian oak, but it faded within a few weeks. I haven't noticed any smoky flavoring from fermentation oak -- which doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I have not noticed it.

I just did the second punch down -- was busy this morning and didn't have time. I checked SG on 3 of the 6 containers:

Chardonnel -- 1.048
Chambourcin -- 1.062
Chelois -- 1.042

I don't check SG on both containers of each batch, as I'm looking for a general reading, nothing specific. All are below 1/3 sugar depletion, so I added nutrient to each.

Chardonnel -- 1 tsp YAN per container
Chambourcin -- 2 tsp YAN, 1 tsp Fermax per container
Chelois -- 2 tsp YAN, 1 tsp Fermax per container

Why the YAN? I ordered Fermax online last year and the vendor sent me YAN. When I complained, they refunded the money and told me to keep the product. So I'm using it up slowly, about 20% to 30% in each batch.

Both the Chambourcin and Chelois have a lot of color. This is the Chambourcin:



Following is a comparison photo of the Chelois, pre- and post-punchdown. This is among the reasons I never fill a fermenter more than 3/4 full:



The above shows my racking jig in action. The following is it with a mesh bag. I purchased the narrowest bag I could find that was tall enough. The more bag there is, the more bag that needs cleaning after usage.

 

[VinesnBines]

It is going to be interesting to see how our wines turn out. Part of my Chelois was crushed along with Bryan’s but I didn’t add any fermentation oak. I did add some FT Rouge. Also mine is fermenting outside with cool nights and with a submerged cap. I’m planning a three or four week EM.

My Chambourcin is still hanging so it will be about 10 days later at harvest. I am going to add fermentation oak and it may end up with a longer EM too.

 

[winemaker81]

It is going to be interesting to see how our wines turn out.

Yes! Mine will go into barrel in about a month, so they'll be bottled in November 2025. Let's plan for a taste test about 3 months after that.

 

[Snafflebit]

Medium toast. When I did a fermentation oak test a couple of years ago, there was a short term difference in taste between American, French, and Hungarian oak, but it faded within a few weeks. I haven't noticed any smoky flavoring from fermentation oak -- which doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I have not noticed it.

Yes, it will be interesting to hear about the difference between your wine and @VinesnBines wine. I was surprised by the flavor and assume it is due to the oak chips. I may dial it back.

I just did the second punch down -- was busy this morning and didn't have time. I checked SG on 3 of the 6 containers:

Chardonnel -- 1.048
Chambourcin -- 1.062
Chelois -- 1.042

I don't check SG on both containers of each batch, as I'm looking for a general reading, nothing specific. All are below 1/3 sugar depletion, so I added nutrient to each.

Chardonnel -- 1 tsp YAN per container
Chambourcin -- 2 tsp YAN, 1 tsp Fermax per container
Chelois -- 2 tsp YAN, 1 tsp Fermax per container

Why the YAN? I ordered Fermax online last year and the vendor sent me YAN. When I complained, they refunded the money and told me to keep the product. So I'm using it up slowly, about 20% to 30% in each batch.

I ordered CH-16 ML from MoreWine this year and another version of ML culture was in the box and I was upset, then I moved the icepack and the CH-16 was below. Free gift? It is in the freezer for next year's experiements.

The only problem I have read about having too much nitrogen in a ferment is that some can remain in the wine and be a source of nutrients for bad bacteria. I don't get a test for YAN and always use a little DAP with my yeast nutrients at 1/3 and 2/3 points in the SG drop, more if the yeast are unhappy.

Both the Chambourcin and Chelois have a lot of color. This is the Chambourcin:

View attachment 116655

Following is a comparison photo of the Chelois, pre- and post-punchdown. This is among the reasons I never fill a fermenter more than 3/4 full:

View attachment 116654

The above shows my racking jig in action. The following is it with a mesh bag. I purchased the narrowest bag I could find that was tall enough. The more bag there is, the more bag that needs cleaning after usage.

View attachment 116656

I love the multipurpose racking jig.