WM81 Fall 2024 Experiments

[VinesnBines]

FYI: don’t remove the sheet from the solvent and turn it over to get it to soak faster. You will foul the test and get nothing. Ask me how I know!

It isn’t complicated but it takes time and patience. Looking at you Bryan!!!

 

[wineview]

Which strain of bacteria did you use? Was it dry or liquid?

 

[winemaker81]

Which strain of bacteria did you use? Was it dry or liquid?

Lalvin 31, which is dry.

 

[wineview]

Lalvin 31, which is dry.

I have found the liquid doesn’t work very well.

 

[winemaker81]

I have found the liquid doesn’t work very well.

I've been following the successes and travails of folks regarding MLB. I was easily convinced to go with dry, due to the rampant failures with liquid.

 

[wineview]

100% agree. Did the bacteria look freeze dried? The packages are typically fairly large. I suppose they would store well in a freezer.

 

[winemaker81]

100% agree. Did the bacteria look freeze dried? The packages are typically fairly large. I suppose they would store well in a freezer.

It was a small package, although sufficient to inoculate 66 gallons.

The funny part is that we have ~85 gallons. The F-A hybrids have better yields, so we produced 4 more carboys that expected. It was a scramble for a few days to figure out whutinthuheck we were going to do.

15 gallons is two Pinot Noir juice buckets fermented with Chambourcin & Chelois pomace. I figure the pomace was full of MLB and did not even consider reserving some to inoculate that batch.

 

[winemaker81]

Today is a wine-work day.

First, the Chardonnel and Vidal that were treated with bentonite a month ago. The treated carboys are noticeably clearer. The untreated carboys may have a protein haze, which will not clear with time. I'm going to make a bentonite slurry and treat the remaining two carboys.

I don't worry about this with reds, since the color masks a lot of imperfections. White? I go for clear.

Today is also barrel topup day. The Chelois barrel took 500 ml wine. It's one of my older barrels (manufactured 2010) and being on the bottom of the rack, it typically takes less wine.



In December we treated the barrels with Quertanin Sweet finishing tannin, while the topup wine was untreated. The finishing tannin makes a significant difference. I can feel the tannin in the middle of the tongue -- not huge, but it makes it a better wine.

Color-wise? The barrel wine is a shade darker. Not enough to matter, but enough to notice.

The Chambourcin took almost a full 750 ml to top. Whatever barrel is on top takes more. I suspect it's a heat thing.



The color between the barrel and topup is not noticeable. However, as with the Chelois, the finishing tannin makes a difference. I'm sold on finishing tannins.

Finally I compared the barrel Chelois & Chambourcin:



The Chambourcin is clearly darker, but to be fair, it's a Teinturier grape, meaning the pulp and juice are red, instead of white like most grapes. It's gonna be darker than just about anything else, well, at least in my understanding.

In the above photo, look at the edge of both wines. The Chelois is red, while the Chambourcin is purple.

Note that while we cannot taste color, we do feast with our eyes. I can't say I like the Chambourcin better because of the color, but it is eye catching.

Beth (@VinesnBines) and I discuss these wines, as the grapes are from her vineyard. It's cool being able to compare wines made from grapes grown in a single vineyard. She recently noted that her Chambourcin were picked 10 days after mine were, as we're comparing notes. Things like that can make a difference.


EDIT: My niece will be visiting in March or April. At that time we'll bottle the whites, so she can take her cases home with her.

I also plan to taste test the various Chambourcin and Chelois that have different finishing tannins. Fred (@mainshipfred) will probably be interested in our results.

 

[Snafflebit]

I note that Quertanin Sweet is the sweetest finishing tannin followed by FT Rouge and Tannin Estate. You cannot go wrong with any of them.

 

[winemaker81]

I note that Quertanin Sweet is the sweetest finishing tannin followed by FT Rouge and Tannin Estate. You cannot go wrong with any of them.

I'm testing all 3 in various containers.

 

[wineview]

A few years ago for white wines I would use bentonite in primary. Then heard about K&C and stopped using bentonite. Is there a reason you don’t use K&C and chose bentonite at that late stage? Also, can you post a photo of your barrels? I’m not familiar with the term “topup”.

When is the best time to add tannin? In primary or sometime before bottling?

 

[winemaker81]

A few years ago for white wines I would use bentonite in primary. Then heard about K&C and stopped using bentonite. Is there a reason you don’t use K&C and chose bentonite at that late stage? Also, can you post a photo of your barrels? I’m not familiar with the term “topup”.

When is the best time to add tannin? In primary or sometime before bottling?

K&C work well as a fining agent. Bentonite not only fines the wine, it eliminates protein haze. My initial intention was to simply find out how much of a difference bentonite made, but in hindsight, I have a protein haze which the bentonite cleared.

A couple of years ago I conducted a test on barrel aged wines. After aging 12 months I treated 19 liters each of 2 wines with K&C left over from kits, and bottled the rest as-is. The following summer I conducted several taste tests, including some of our members from the DC area. The overall result was that the K&C introduced a slight bitterness and reduced aroma. Later discussion on this forum indicated that the quantities of K&C included in kits are higher than normal, and this contributed to the negative effects I noted. I have not used K&C since then, but if I do, I will check for recommended amounts and go with a lighter dose. It's my experience that a maximum dose is very rarely needed to clear a wine.

These are my old barrels when I was cleaning them between uses. They are 54 liter, manufactured in 2010, and I purchased them in the fall of 2019 and 2020, respectively.



I built a barrel rack, which is massively over engineered, but there is NO way it will break and drop the top barrel.

In the Fall 2023 an acquaintance was moving and gave away a relatively new 56 liter barrels, so we have 3. Currently I have 2 barrels in the rack in my cellar, and my elder son has the third one in his living room. It's a great conversation piece, as VERY few people have a full 14.5 US gallon barrel in their living room.



Barrels evaporate water and alcohol through the wood. Mine do about 10% per year, so for a 14.5 gallon barrel, I need to start with at least 16 gallons of wine. I "top up" (which I sometimes write as "topup") the barrels every 4 to 6 weeks to replace the wine that has evaporated.


Regarding tannin, I've added powdered oak tannin to whites and fruits at fermentation time. For reds I add oak shreds or chips.

The 2024 season is the first time using finishing tannin. I added it after the wines were cleared, in mid-December (all wines started in October).

Gross lees (fruit solids) supposedly drop within 24-72 hours after the end of fermentation. I typically let wines rest 1 to 3 weeks after pressing, so not only the gross lees have dropped, a lot of the fine lees (yeast hulls) has as well.

From what I read, it made sense to add the finishing tannin after racking off the heavy lees.

 

[wineview]

Thanks Brian. Are finishing tannins the same as the powdered tannins purchased in by the ounce or pound?

 

[winemaker81]

Thanks Brian. Are finishing tannins the same as the powdered tannins purchased in by the ounce or pound?

Plain tannin (no specialty name) is typically white oak tannin. That's what I use for fermentation tannin.

Finishing tannins vary in what they are. Some are various types of oak (American, Hungarian, French), while some are other types (beech, etc.). There are a LOT of different tannin, e.g., white oak and grape tannin are different.

I read the descriptions and chatted with Fred (@mainshipfred) among others.

This post on page 3 of this thread lists the ones I used. I suggest you search on the names to get the descriptions. For the reds I used the one whose description I liked best (Quertanin Sweet), since I'd have the most of it.

And I just realized I spelled it wrong in my previous posts ... which I just fixed.

 

[wineview]

When using oak chips and especially oak cubes, for me they impart too much oak flavor. I have to be light handed with that. But I do like a bit of dryness on the tongue. So I am interested in learning more about finishing tannins. When I research “finish tannins” I never see the word “finish” on the product name.

 

[winemaker81]

When using oak chips and especially oak cubes, for me they impart too much oak flavor. I have to be light handed with that. But I do like a bit of dryness on the tongue. So I am interested in learning more about finishing tannins. When I research “finish tannins” I never see the word “finish” on the product name.

"finishing tannin" may be a colloquial term, which explains why you didn't find it.

Fermentation oak contributes very little to aroma or taste, but if you're very sensitive, try 1/4 to 1/2 tsp powdered generic tannin per gallon.

For the finishing tannin, I looked at vendor recommendations and used a median value.