Yeast "colony" - does it need to stay intact in some way?

[winemaker81]

Bentonite strips all sulphite so once you rack off of bentonite sediment you have to resulphite.

Dang! I did not know that!

I learn something new on this forum each week.

 

[cmason1957]

Dang! I did not know that!

I learn something new on this forum each week.

Like you I did not know that either, until yesterday when I read this in the LabelPeelers wine blog. Matteo Lahm writes these, lots of good information over there.

https://labelpeelers.com/label-peel...nic-virtuoso-of-winemaking-and-how-to-use-it/

 

[David Violante]

Because of the Crabtree Effect the bloodthirsty little guys start making alcohol very quickly to kill competitors and make the environment as inhospitable for interlopers as possible.

This is incredibly picayune but I humbly offer that they just do so without will or intent. The effects of today’s yeast that have been bred in a particular fashion create such situations. Those from the field that have survived time and other yeasts are in the same boat. If the yeast are not strong and the conditions just right, we have ‘colonies’ of other interlopers.

I bring this up from years of teaching pathophysiology and trying to change the mindset of young paramedics influenced by the news of (any disease) having intent. We are largely responsible (as evidenced here by everyone’s stance on sanitation) for the conditions and environment to help yeast thrive.

I return you to your regularly scheduled programming…. Thank you for permitting my rant… time for a glass of wine...

 

[Raptor99]

It's interesting -- Scott Labs, AWRI, and Lallemand don't use the term "colony". But it seems like everyone else does -- various research papers, nature sites, etc. Correct or not, "yeast colony" is a commonly used term.

Maybe the entire carboy should be considered the yeast "colony." An alternative would be to call it the yeast "population."

 

[BigDaveK]

This is incredibly picayune but I humbly offer that they just do so without will or intent. The effects of today’s yeast that have been bred in a particular fashion create such situations. Those from the field that have survived time and other yeasts are in the same boat. If the yeast are not strong and the conditions just right, we have ‘colonies’ of other interlopers.

I bring this up from years of teaching pathophysiology and trying to change the mindset of young paramedics influenced by the news of (any disease) having intent. We are largely responsible (as evidenced here by everyone’s stance on sanitation) for the conditions and environment to help yeast thrive.

I return you to your regularly scheduled programming…. Thank you for permitting my rant… time for a glass of wine...

Ah, but isn't the driving force of all life to reproduce and survive? I think every creature, large and small, has developed mechanisms to increase their odds if even a little. Yes, you could say it's instinct, without will or intent, but for the yeast it's a bloodthirsty instinct.

And don't forget the "kill factor" designation for yeast. Doesn't sound squishy and furry and benign to me.

And rant whenever you want! Do you have a favorite post-rant wine?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Very well said;

If there's a yeast colony you're living in it. They're everywhere.

Likewise

It's just that the colony is the same size and shape as my fermentation vessel!

As far as oxygen, some of this depends on what wine do you make? ,,, A wine is a soup of chemicals which when combined together have a REDOX potential. Many of the chemicals like tannins and aromatic flavor compounds and brightly colored pigments and ethyl alcohol are reduced and contain excess electrons. They have energy to give up. To balance the redox equation oxygen will pick up electrons any time one adds oxygen to the soup.
IF my soup is rich in mid chain length tannins (ex grape seeds) which have bitter flavors I benefit by doing some oxidation, the flavor becomes less harsh and transitions into a smooth tannin. IF I add more oxygen to this astringent tannin (or grape skins tannin ) it transitions into a flavorless molecule and eventually the wine starts tasting flat and folks notice their wine tastes sweeter. IF I add oxygen to ethyl alcohol initially it adds complexity to the flavor and when oxidized ethyl alcohol gets above 100ppm most folks will say that it is harsh/ has a burn flavor as you swallow (acetaldehyde). IF I add oxygen to fruity aromatics they lose their fresh fruit notes. IF you add oxygen to red pigments they turn brown. Wine is a soup, if I have lots of bitter flavor and I want to produce a wine to be used in a year I can micro-oxygenate and produce an instantly salable product. HOWEVER if my goal is a wine which stands up to five years and I micro oxidize I am using up all my REDOX potential and the cascade starts oxidizing color pigments and aromatics and alcohol etc and the wine tastes spoiled. ,,, Are you a drink it within a year producer
? or a ten year shelf life producer? If Craig is mainly a red wine producer he is correct, 5mg of oxygen a year passing through a cork will make a more drinkable wine, ,,, at least until his REDOX wallet is used up.

If you don’t have high tannin concentration as white grape or many fruit wines your redox wallet is skinny. You could make a several year wine IF you are squeaky clean and keep oxidation out. OR you could make a wine that peaks at three months / ready to sell, and is bad at a year. What kind of soup do you make? On my part I do mostly fruit wines so I start with a skinny REDOX wallet, ,,, and I choose to be careful about oxygen exposure.

oil rig { Oxidation Is Loss ~ Reduction Is Gain }

 

[winemaker81]

As far as oxygen, some of this depends on what wine do you make?

David, thanks for an explanation of why micro-oxidation in barrel is a benefit to a red wine, while excess headspace in a carboy produces oxidation and browning. This also explains why aerating a wine opened for drinking is a benefit.

It's best to think of O2 as a frenemy -- it has its time and place for usefulness, but only on those occasions.

 

[David Violante]

Ah, but isn't the driving force of all life to reproduce and survive? I think every creature, large and small, has developed mechanisms to increase their odds if even a little. Yes, you could say it's instinct, without will or intent, but for the yeast it's a bloodthirsty instinct.

And don't forget the "kill factor" designation for yeast. Doesn't sound squishy and furry and benign to me.

And rant whenever you want! Do you have a favorite post-rant wine?

Yes, yes it is. The difference, is that creatures have not intentionally developed those mechanisms. Those creatures with such mechanisms survived those without them.

Bloodthirsty yeast have eliminated their competition not by will, but through their operational design. Some are incredibly complex designs as well - such as emitting chemical compounds in the presence of certain chemical transmitters to alert/activate other 'like' organisms. This happens throughout the plant kingdom. I'm not saying any of this is squishy and furry or benign. It's an absolutely amazing Mad Max death match. But there is no board-room where administrative yeast decide to thwart my plans to co-inoculate with another yeast by modifying their own ability. They can or they can't, and then do or don't.

As such, we've designed yeast to perform specifically to this task of making wine, and to have specific characteristics, etc... We've taken what we like from yeast A and B and some from D to make killer Z with nice bouquet and strong finish that's not too acidic and won't produce off smells or compounds. Place them out in the wild and they may not make it. I haven't tried, maybe they will! We are constantly adjusting our processes to take advantage of, or overcome, such characteristics to guide what we want at the end. Somebody please combine those characteristics which will overcome my sanitizing mishaps...!

The same thing amuses me when a newscaster says an angry storm targeted an already ravaged community. Nope. The storm was a sum of the combination of environmental conditions that produced and dissipated it.

And I love this! It is science, and art, to understand, and craft. Thank all things holy for everyone here helping me with both...

I think there were actually several post-rant wines involved... Zinfandel, Port, and then a wonderfully light and bright Meyer lemon, almond and vanilla aperitif. Yes, they were out of order somewhat, the aperitif should have been first, it's just what struck me at the moment. I'm waiting for my Bochet to come of age, then that may be my favorite...!

 

[BigDaveK]

Yes, yes it is. The difference, is that creatures have not intentionally developed those mechanisms. Those creatures with such mechanisms survived those without them.

Bloodthirsty yeast have eliminated their competition not by will, but through their operational design. Some are incredibly complex designs as well - such as emitting chemical compounds in the presence of certain chemical transmitters to alert/activate other 'like' organisms. This happens throughout the plant kingdom. I'm not saying any of this is squishy and furry or benign. It's an absolutely amazing Mad Max death match. But there is no board-room where administrative yeast decide to thwart my plans to co-inoculate with another yeast by modifying their own ability. They can or they can't, and then do or don't.

As such, we've designed yeast to perform specifically to this task of making wine, and to have specific characteristics, etc... We've taken what we like from yeast A and B and some from D to make killer Z with nice bouquet and strong finish that's not too acidic and won't produce off smells or compounds. Place them out in the wild and they may not make it. I haven't tried, maybe they will! We are constantly adjusting our processes to take advantage of, or overcome, such characteristics to guide what we want at the end. Somebody please combine those characteristics which will overcome my sanitizing mishaps...!

The same thing amuses me when a newscaster says an angry storm targeted an already ravaged community. Nope. The storm was a sum of the combination of environmental conditions that produced and dissipated it.

And I love this! It is science, and art, to understand, and craft. Thank all things holy for everyone here helping me with both...

I think there were actually several post-rant wines involved... Zinfandel, Port, and then a wonderfully light and bright Meyer lemon, almond and vanilla aperitif. Yes, they were out of order somewhat, the aperitif should have been first, it's just what struck me at the moment. I'm waiting for my Bochet to come of age, then that may be my favorite...!

And what are your favorite pre-rant wines?

Are you sure those mechanisms weren't intentionally developed? An obvious question, then why have them? Did they come to be "just in case"? As I see it, an environment becomes hostile from climate or competition. Employees at Mother Nature Inc are horrified that a pet project is being decimated. "They're getting slaughtered, we have to do something! Mobilize the Evolution Department!" Success! Usually. To the great dismay of some employees a few projects are cancelled. Is that intentional development? Well.... If we ignore Mother Nature (usually a mistake! ) then evolution leads to a heady discussion of philosophy, religion, metaphysics, chance, and serendipity...with no resolution. (IMO) I'm done - time to check SG.

Yeah, I'm grateful that the most difficult aspect of making a new wine is which yeast to use. Generally, though, **** sapiens muck things up.

And everyone knows that that storm targeting an already ravaged community was caused by a butterfly flapping it's wings on the other side of the planet.

 

[David Violante]

I’m finding I don’t really need a wine to rant… LOL and I agree, we do tend to muck things up. I firmly believe the fungi are going to win in the end. Keep at it~ looking forward to what you’re ‘going for’ next… and now... a nice port…