Yeast Comparison [EC-1118 vs 71B-1122]

[Pumpkinman]

Not that I want to speak for Dave, but....I think that everyone is taking this out of context, I had the impression that Dave has heard so much about 71B-1122, that he wanted to do a side by side comparison to see if there are any differences in his batches of DB, for himself, and wanted to share it with us.
I could be wrong.

 

[jamesngalveston]

Dont forget JAOM is made with bread yeast...what is jaom

 

[dangerdave]

Dear DD, wasnt WVMJ the guy who helped you stop putting in 6X more sulphite than was needed in DB? Wasnt that a bit helpful and believe me it was hard to convince you?

Was that you? I had completely forgotten. Thank you for that. It was very helpful.

If you matched the yeast to this, maybe a pasteur red would be the best, but EC1118 is a bulldog and is overkill big time.

I started with the EC-1118 because that was what Lon called for in his original Skeeter Pee Recipe, and---being a beginner---I wanted to follow his recipe to the tee. Since then, I have tried many different variations in the recipe I derived from his...the DB. If the EC-1118 is, as you say, "overkill big time" then it is indeed a wonder that I (and many others) have used it to make such wonderful wine under such adverse conditions. Can you explain this?

Sorry if you taking this as a personal hit DD, I remember it was hard to get you to stop using so much KM from the start to so I will just hang in here and keep trying. If you are going to do experiments you have to take criticisms to help guide them, if you only want people to tell you how good your idea is all the time you wont progress very far.

Were you being personal? I didn't think so. But you are not dealing with the same person who came here several years ago. And in this instance, I can say with confidence that you are wrong. I have a whole slew of people (and even a few wine judges) who will back me up. You may scoff at my methods, but you cannot deny the results---unless you have tried it yourself.

As far as making one, not enough room, but this is about the strength of a light seconds batch, or even a bottle of Strawberry Hill would probably be about right.

Now you're getting the picture! It's not made to be a strong wine. I have other wines in my cellar for those who want a strong red or a full-bodied white. The EC-1118 has worked just fine over many batches. But, if you might notice, this experiment is my attempt to find a better yeast for this recipe. So, your criticism is rather moot.

But thanks anyway. You are welcome to keep trying, if you feel the need.

 

[dangerdave]

Manley, you are very thorough. But this is a much more casual and superficial experiment, perhaps, than you would do. I jusy wanted to keep it simple.

I have taken the temps and SG each day as I squeeze and stir. That's it. No acid testing. I am far more interested in the outcome than the process. Both batches will be treated exactly the same way, per the DB recipe, with no variation except the yeast employed. I am more the artist than the scientist when it comes to wine making. Quite a change for me, really.

I am sorry, my friend. This is not going to be a sophisticated endeavor.

 

[dangerdave]

Not that I want to speak for Dave, but....I think that everyone is taking this out of context, I had the impression that Dave has heard so much about 71B-1122, that he wanted to do a side by side comparison to see if there are any differences in his batches of DB, for himself, and wanted to share it with us.
I could be wrong.

Precisely, Tom! I couldn't have said it better.

 

[seth8530]

Manley, you are very thorough. But this is a much more casual and superficial experiment, perhaps, than you would do. I jusy wanted to keep it simple.

I have taken the temps and SG each day as I squeeze and stir. That's it. No acid testing. I am far more interested in the outcome than the process. Both batches will be treated exactly the same way, per the DB recipe, with no variation except the yeast employed. I am more the artist than the scientist when it comes to wine making. Quite a change for me, really.

I am sorry, my friend. This is not going to be a sophisticated endeavor.

The only thing I am worried about with your test is that you may not get the full feel of how the 71B should come out due to being possibly being throttled out by nutrients. Ie, EC-1118 would do much better in a fruit wine than say D-47 when it is starved for nutrients.

 

[Deezil]

Are you using the same amount/type of yeast nutrient for each yeast?

And that leads me to the "next experiment";
Provided you have a clear winner here..
Because you're so familiar with DB..

I would like to see a "Part Deux"
Repeat this experiment, with the winning yeast

With 1 of the 2, use your normal yeast nutrient program (which is...?)
With the other, use Go-Ferm to rehydrate & Fermaid-O for the fermentation

Then compare those same notes;
Temp
pH/TA
Length of ferment

And more importantly, the sensory impact.
Which has a more pleasant aroma?
Which has a better flavor?
Does one have any smells/flavors that the other doesnt?

I have my guesses on how this will all play out, but I'll withhold those in order to maintain a certain amount of unbiased opinions here.. If too many people say the same thing, regardless of what it is, it could skew the results by having Dave interpret things subconsciously, to fit what he would "expect" to happen.

This is the part that I was really hoping Dave would give consideration.

I could share what I think might happen in a DAP-based nutrient vs organic-nitrogen nutrient, but I wouldnt want to bias Dave too much beforehand

I can understand and honor your approach, Dave.. Like always it seems, I just cant help but try

 

[Pumpkinman]

Manley, I'd be very interested in hearing about the various nutrients. Can you start a new thread?

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

DD, you are in the classic if it aint broke dont fix it mode, my way or highway mode, cant get any better than this I tried. Good luck and I hope you win hundreds of metals all over the world. WVMJ

 

[seth8530]

Manley, I'd be very interested in hearing about the various nutrients. Can you start a new thread?

We already have a pretty well develoiped thread on this... Make sure you read it all the way through though because their are developments made in our discoveries....

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/got-off-phone-fermaid-people-38704/

 

[dangerdave]

Shoot, I don't even know what kind/brand/type of nutrient I have. It's the stuff I get when I order nutrient from George. You're asking the artist what kind of paint he's using for his pictures. The painter says, "The kind with colors. Ain't it a purdy painting?"

Now that I have Jack off my back, I can return to having fun making wine and winning medals!

I'll be going home to squeeze and stir this morning and make a few notes. Manley has the right idea. I intend to concentrate on the all important outcome in this comparision...

"And more importantly, the sensory impact.
Which has a more pleasant aroma?
Which has a better flavor?
Does one have any smells/flavors that the other doesnt?"

That is how I have always made my wines. Very little testing but lots of tasting and smelling. After fermentation is complete (end of the week), I will plunge in with all my senses.

 

[GreginND]

We already have a pretty well develoiped thread on this... Make sure you read it all the way through though because their are developments made in our discoveries....

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/got-off-phone-fermaid-people-38704/

Yes, this is a great discussion worthy of bookmarking.

 

[dangerdave]

Day 6: Fermetation is nearly complete! I have been able to keep both batches at exactly the same temp throughout primary fermentation---which was my main concern. I wanted to see if one would go dry before the other. Surprisingly (to me, at least) they continued with their previous trend and completed as if the same yeast had been used in both! So far, under this test's conditions, I have found absolutely no difference between these two yeasts.

EC-1118: SG = 0.992 @ 72F
71B-1122: SG = 0.995 @ 72F

Since the wines were dry (or almost dry) I performed the final squeeze on the bags of fruit and removed them for good. My stirring has off-gassed the wines nicely, so degassing should be easy when the time comes. I will let them sit quietly for a few more days, and then proceed with my observations. I plan to have a good sniff and taste prior to stabilization and clearing, to see if a I can discover any differences.

I have to say, I really expected some kind of varition in the action of these two yeasts during primary fermentation. If it comes down to it, what conclusions can we draw if these two wines come out exactly the same in all aspects? I remember in my bentonite vs sparkolloid comparison, the two test batches had different qualities up front, but after a month in the bottle, you couldn't tell them apart. That's why I stuck with the sparkolloid, because it seemed to have less adverse effect on the wine at clearing, making the DB more drinkable right away.

We shall see! That's why I love these comparison studies. Sometimes you learn things that no amount of "uneducated specualtion" can predict.

 

[seth8530]

The differences are likely to be in the taste and smell department rather than the rate of fermentation department.

 

[RCGoodin]

Thanks for the update.

 

[dangerdave]

Woops! Got busy this past week and forgot to update...

Day 9: After the wines had sat for a few more days, I pulled the lids back and had a look. They appeared the same...

I drew a small sample of each for a sniff-taste. Without a doubt, the EC-1118 gave the DB more of a distinct tartness, while the 71B-1122 was much smoother and fruitier. The taste carried over into the aromas as well, with the EC nipping at the nose a bit. These descriptions are taking into account any preconceptions and the fact that, at this stage, the wines are new-born and non-sweetened.

Both batches sat squarely at the SG of 0.992 at 72F.

After I carefully drained the contents of each batch into their respective carboys, I had a look at the lees. The EC's lees (below-top) appears slightly "chunkier" than the creamy consistancy of the 71B lees (below-bottom).

I then degassed each batch by running them---separately---one time through my "falling-film-degassing-widget" thingy using my handy-dandy allinonewinepump (below). I usually rack batches of wine several times under vacuum to be sure they are thoroughly degassed before clearing. These I did only once, for a reason. I want to see if the yeast used has had any effect on the amount of gas released or retained by the wine. Both wines appeared to produce very little gas at this point---which may have more to do with my treatment of the wines during fermentation than any effect of the yeasts.

The batches were moved to the bench, and treated with Sparkolloid. It appears that the 71B (right) has produced a slightly darker DB.

They will be left to clear completely, then I'll taste again before and after back sweetening.

Stay tuned...if you dare!!! ::

 

[RCGoodin]

Looking forward to the next update. At this point one would think the 71B has a little better mouth feel after tasting. Your thoughts?

 

[TommBomb]

Thanks Dave, from my point of you I think your experiment was a worthy one. I know we can get into more details and dig deeper, but I don't see that many other people doing this kind of experimentation. So as a bystander learning something new to make a better product I'm all in. Cheers

 

[dangerdave]

So far, RC, you are correct.

Tom, thanks for the kudos. I like to try different stuff---as in any hobby---trying to improve. And I learn better by doing. If my trials (success or failure) can help someone else, more the better. I know a lot of folks make and like the DB, so there's a fan base to consider in improving the final product. It may be important to understand that other yeasts will work fine for DB (or any Skeeter Pee version), or may even make a better wine than the EC-1118 originally emplyed by Lon.

 

[wineforfun]

Great work Dave, thanks for the update.