Awesome!!!! Good for you guys! Sounds like quite the adventure! I'll definitely be following your progress and love to know how your wines are coming along. Best of luck to you and Stephanie.Yes, Stephanie is my wife! Firstly, the winery is not open yet, so nothing I've made up until now can be sold even after licensing and permits are completeThis makes opening a winery one of the most cost-forward ventures I can think of--spend all the money, submit to competitions, make wine, distribute wine, can't sell anything with alcohol in it..... yeah. We tried to supplement the finances with selling overpriced wine glasses, but no one wants a wine glass from a winery they can only taste in-person or at events. Fortunately, we're doing it as a dream-made-reality thing, it is not something that is going to financially ruin us if it completely flops. If it flops, I'll still run the winery because it's just what I like doing. I realize I'm in a very fortunate position to be able to do that, but there you have it. If I didn't have the business sense to make it work, I still know the region has what it takes! We chose this location because the soil is positively perfect, the climate is spot on for most of the varieties I want, and the water is literally unlimited and free due to the in-land flowing Mojave river. We are not in "wine country," but I knew this spot was perfect, anyway. Our plan is to simply sell what we make, if we run out of a vintage then we run out. The goal was to simply make great wine from this terroir and prove it's possible. The vines I've worked with in Temecula (So Cal wine country) tended to struggle from all the morning dew constantly soaking them. Sure, you don't need to water much, but I started to wonder if any of these SoCal wine growers had ever been to Tuscany. It's arid, dry, only occasionally rainy and hot! Nothing like Temecula. That would be like trying to grow Riesling (a Rhine grape) in Tuscany... They get by with good rootstock and anti fungals, but high desert region of SoCal is really where it's at imo for these varietals, similar climate, similar growing season, similar rain fall, similar watering needs, close-enough soil comp.
Our first set of vines went in the ground in December of 2020, so even now they are not fully mature. Early 2021 was also when we started the licensing and permitting applications (yes, it really does take that long). We did not supplement with purchased grapes because we didn't need much, occasional events and competitions is all we do, even now. We're drowning in wine we can't sell, lol.
The very first year we produced around 100 gallons from ~500 vines, but they were very young and it was their first harvest. They grapes were sub par and too acidic. But this is normal for young vines. Most of this was turned in to wine, some was sold as juice to my family, but I don't think any of them actually used it to make good wine lol.
The second year we produced 300+ gallons from ~1400 vines. Most of which coming from the first year Zinfandel that was rapidly maturing and very vigorous. Others included Sangiovese and Malbec--I wanted to get my favorite reds in first. I was very worried about the 200 gallon per person limit for amateurs and contacted my ABC (Alcohol Beverage Control) Officer to figure out what I could do. He said just make wine out of it since our winery was already a very solid matter of "record." But of course we couldn't sell a drop of it. This was the first year we tried to sell grapes. We had the idea of having schools come and pick grapes as an agricultural experience for kids. This was quickly squashed by CA Karen mothers citing risk of spider bites, snake bites, and other asinine "risks." They wanted us to have on premises liability insurance before they'd consider it. Anyway! So we were asked to not allow "customers," if you could call them that, to enter the facilities, including the vineyards. Ultimately, about 100 gallons of must went to waste because we simply didn't scale fast enough to ferment it all. I had no idea how happy these vines were going to be.
The third year we had a grasshopper attack in early spring. I just dusted with flour, tilled the soil near affected vines (how they breed), and it didn't affect harvest. This year we had a similarly huge harvest from the Zinfandel--the Malbec, Sangiovese, and young Sauv Blanc were also very productive, but no-where near all the Zin and we'd only planted 4 acres (~2000 vines). I stopped measuring this year, just filled all the space we had (300 gallons), and composted everything else that didn't look perfect. This was the first year I knew we'd be ok! I couldn't believe the quality and quantity of wines coming from our ground, that's really what worried me most since our little area in the foothills of the San Bernardino mountains isn't normally considered "wine county." I also had multiple gold awards from professional educators, and industry pros--this really validated my vines and skills more than anything else. I love how my wine tastes, but now I know others do too! I think this boost saved me from just giving up tbh.
We're now into our fourth year and all of the primary construction is finally done. The house, the well (this was actually first even before the house), the winery building, the vineyards, etc. All that's left is County permission to hardscape and landscape, and ABC permission to sell and host. We are already TTB approved and can submit labels and recipes to the feds as needed. None of the wines I make, with maybe the exception of the pomegranate zinfandel blend, requires recipe submission, however.
We had plans to plant around 20 acres, but put those on pause to allow us to get out of the red first. If things go well, I'll expand the vineyards and winery as needed. If not, then the 4 acres that are active is just about right for me to handle on my own (without needing to hire too much).
Hope that answers your question! Cheers.
Zinfandel grapes -> wine! A new member's introduction via a 75L of red deliciousness.
- Thread starter tjmeyer
- Start date
Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:
Yeast starter is looking good. I followed Bryan's guide, with as few alterations as I could.
- Instead of white sugar, I used powered sugar.
- I added the yeast at exactly 40°C, which is what's always been drilled into me. Sorry, Bryan!
- After step #4, I introduced about 50% of the current volume of must juice runoff to help it acclimate, at least part of the way, to the pH change it'll have to go through in the morning. So I added 100mL of juice to a 200mL starter, etc. Hitting the sack and will pitch around 6AM PST if everything is ready.
Last edited:
Data 3/17/2024
Pitched yeast at 6am PST and poured over thoroughly. Yeast was roaring, and starters were quite warm and overflowing. At 7am fermentation was active enough to begin forming a cap and produced a very healthy fermentation smell. I've never seen a fermentation take hold so fast, even with other very healthy starters.
Added the following:
8 gallons RP-15: 12g (recommend amount was 1.5g/gallon) of Fermaid O mixed in a tiny amount of well water, shaken in a sanitary protein shaker bottle, pitched and rinsed with pour over.
12 gallons BM 4x4 / Assmanshausens: 12g (recommended amount was 1g/gallon) of Fermaid K mixed in a tiny amount of well water, shaken in a sanitary protein shaker bottle, pitched and rinsed with pour over.
Added a little more oak to each (after photos).
Temperature
19.6°C(rp15) and 19.4°C(BM mix)
Pitched yeast at 6am PST and poured over thoroughly. Yeast was roaring, and starters were quite warm and overflowing. At 7am fermentation was active enough to begin forming a cap and produced a very healthy fermentation smell. I've never seen a fermentation take hold so fast, even with other very healthy starters.
Added the following:
8 gallons RP-15: 12g (recommend amount was 1.5g/gallon) of Fermaid O mixed in a tiny amount of well water, shaken in a sanitary protein shaker bottle, pitched and rinsed with pour over.
12 gallons BM 4x4 / Assmanshausens: 12g (recommended amount was 1g/gallon) of Fermaid K mixed in a tiny amount of well water, shaken in a sanitary protein shaker bottle, pitched and rinsed with pour over.
Added a little more oak to each (after photos).
Temperature
19.6°C(rp15) and 19.4°C(BM mix)
Last edited:
Nice to see the project moving to the next stage!
I've had wines go from 1.090 to below 1.000 in 4 days using the overnight starter. The big difference is how the yeast grows a much larger initial colony in an environment that is far more ideal for it. I am wondering if adding some must to the starter after it's had a chance to get started made any difference.
note -- all my comments are advice. You are the guy on the ground, so do whatever you think is right at the time. I learn from things that are different from what I do.
Trevor, on the starters you made, how long did you wait before you added must to the yeast/sugar mix? Sounds like the must addition really helped boost the starter.
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I didn't think to measure it, but I'm gonna estimate 2 hours.
As a quick follow up, clear and obvious cap forming only 4 hours after pitch. It was already about 3" thick and dry on top. Already punching! The rapid change is unbelievable.
The RP-15 has a very carbonated texture, similar to a thicker soda like root beer.
The BM 4x4 mix is much creamier, similar to a Guinness Stout.
(Sorry, my weird attempt at explaining what I'm seeing)
I find it to be very accurate when used right. The hydrometer function does not work in must, but the temperature logging does. When in a white, I find the SG logging to be more than good enough! It's also very accurate at being suddenly dropped in any pressed wine; however, it's designed to log a ferment, not measure final SG as a stand-alone measure.
The range is also terrible on the tiltpro2, but in return the battery life is crazy good. I've had it in a barrel for 6 months (summer months) tracking temps without issue. You can use a bunch of them, intelligently place them around, and log them all with an old phone plugged in the wall. But if all you want is temperature logging, there are much cheaper solutions.
It's just another tool in the box, you know?
Here's a philosophical question -- how much need is there for SG tracking once a wine goes into bulk aging?
I would like an easier way to check SG during fermentation. I created a VERY high tech jig to extract clear wine from a fermenting must (see below), and it works well, but it's a PITA to clean the mesh bag every time.
Yeah, I'm being facetious about the "high tech" part.
I wrap it in a fine mesh bag, plunge it into the must, and use a Fermtech wine thief to extract wine. During fermentation I check the SG in the wine thief, although I've noticed it may be off a couple of degrees, differing from the same wine poured into a test jar and tested with the same hydrometer. However, during fermentation being off a few degrees doesn't matter. Post fermentation I check in the test jar.
I would like an easier way to check SG during fermentation. I created a VERY high tech jig to extract clear wine from a fermenting must (see below), and it works well, but it's a PITA to clean the mesh bag every time.
Yeah, I'm being facetious about the "high tech" part.
I wrap it in a fine mesh bag, plunge it into the must, and use a Fermtech wine thief to extract wine. During fermentation I check the SG in the wine thief, although I've noticed it may be off a couple of degrees, differing from the same wine poured into a test jar and tested with the same hydrometer. However, during fermentation being off a few degrees doesn't matter. Post fermentation I check in the test jar.
Hey, that works! This is exactly why I use false bottom fermentersHere's a philosophical question -- how much need is there for SG tracking once a wine goes into bulk aging?
I would like an easier way to check SG during fermentation. I created a VERY high tech jig to extract clear wine from a fermenting must (see below), and it works well, but it's a PITA to clean the mesh bag every time.
View attachment 111081
Yeah, I'm being facetious about the "high tech" part.
I wrap it in a fine mesh bag, plunge it into the must, and use a Fermtech wine thief to extract wine. During fermentation I check the SG in the wine thief, although I've noticed it may be off a couple of degrees, differing from the same wine poured into a test jar and tested with the same hydrometer. However, during fermentation being off a few degrees doesn't matter. Post fermentation I check in the test jar.
As for SG during bulk age... I don't, should I though?
I guess I wrongfully assumed SG readings would be the same regardless of the container used as long as it was sufficiently deep. I don't normally use my test jar (pre and immediately post-fermentation), I just test in the bucket. I use a thief and jar before bottling to get a final SG.
I didn't realize this final SG number taken via jar could be inaccurate since my inital was taken from the bucket. I guess I learned something new today.
In the case of testing in the thief, it's very narrow and while I let the thief hang straight so the hydrometer doesn't touch the sides, I suspect that has an effect.
For me, the first and last SG readings matter, I want them as accurate as possible. Everything in between is "well, it's close enough for government work".
Data 3/18/24
Temperature
Expected rise to 21.5°C/70.7°F following 24 hours after pitch.
Brix
Each ferment is just under 20°Brix this morning, down from 23°Brix starting point.
Look and feel
Both have a very thorough fermentation underway. Punching cap 3-4x a day I've noticed that the bm4x4 has a stiffer cap than the rp-15.
Both smell and look healthy and correct from experience. Color and texture are similar between the two with small clumped solids forming throughout the free juice.
Taste is still sweet and active fermentation is quite obvious to the mouth.
Temperature
Expected rise to 21.5°C/70.7°F following 24 hours after pitch.
Brix
Each ferment is just under 20°Brix this morning, down from 23°Brix starting point.
Look and feel
Both have a very thorough fermentation underway. Punching cap 3-4x a day I've noticed that the bm4x4 has a stiffer cap than the rp-15.
Both smell and look healthy and correct from experience. Color and texture are similar between the two with small clumped solids forming throughout the free juice.
Taste is still sweet and active fermentation is quite obvious to the mouth.
Aedoyle
Junior
Very cool venture for you and your wife! I must have missed the link- can someone send?Yes, Stephanie is my wife! Firstly, the winery is not open yet, so nothing I've made up until now can be sold even after licensing and permits are complete
Our first set of vines went in the ground in December of 2020, so even now they are not fully mature. Early 2021 was also when we started the licensing and permitting applications (yes, it really does take that long). We did not supplement with purchased grapes because we didn't need much, occasional events and competitions is all we do, even now. We're drowning in wine we can't sell, lol.
The very first year we produced around 100 gallons from ~500 vines, but they were very young and it was their first harvest. They grapes were sub par and too acidic. But this is normal for young vines. Most of this was turned in to wine, some was sold as juice to my family, but I don't think any of them actually used it to make good wine lol.
The second year we produced 300+ gallons from ~1400 vines. Most of which coming from the first year Zinfandel that was rapidly maturing and very vigorous. Others included Sangiovese and Malbec--I wanted to get my favorite reds in first. I was very worried about the 200 gallon per person limit for amateurs and contacted my ABC (Alcohol Beverage Control) Officer to figure out what I could do. He said just make wine out of it since our winery was already a very solid matter of "record." But of course we couldn't sell a drop of it. This was the first year we tried to sell grapes. We had the idea of having schools come and pick grapes as an agricultural experience for kids. This was quickly squashed by CA Karen mothers citing risk of spider bites, snake bites, and other asinine "risks." They wanted us to have on premises liability insurance before they'd consider it. Anyway! So we were asked to not allow "customers," if you could call them that, to enter the facilities, including the vineyards. Ultimately, about 100 gallons of must went to waste because we simply didn't scale fast enough to ferment it all. I had no idea how happy these vines were going to be.
The third year we had a grasshopper attack in early spring. I just dusted with flour, tilled the soil near affected vines (how they breed), and it didn't affect harvest. This year we had a similarly huge harvest from the Zinfandel--the Malbec, Sangiovese, and young Sauv Blanc were also very productive, but no-where near all the Zin and we'd only planted 4 acres (~2000 vines). I stopped measuring this year, just filled all the space we had (300 gallons), and composted everything else that didn't look perfect. This was the first year I knew we'd be ok! I couldn't believe the quality and quantity of wines coming from our ground, that's really what worried me most since our little area in the foothills of the San Bernardino mountains isn't normally considered "wine county." I also had multiple gold awards from professional educators, and industry pros--this really validated my vines and skills more than anything else. I love how my wine tastes, but now I know others do too! I think this boost saved me from just giving up tbh.
We're now into our fourth year and all of the primary construction is finally done. The house, the well (this was actually first even before the house), the winery building, the vineyards, etc. All that's left is County permission to hardscape and landscape, and ABC permission to sell and host. We are already TTB approved and can submit labels and recipes to the feds as needed. None of the wines I make, with maybe the exception of the pomegranate zinfandel blend, requires recipe submission, however.
We had plans to plant around 20 acres, but put those on pause to allow us to get out of the red first. If things go well, I'll expand the vineyards and winery as needed. If not, then the 4 acres that are active is just about right for me to handle on my own (without needing to hire too much).
Hope that answers your question! Cheers.
Sure: Meyerwine.com
Given the recent temperatures in California, I’m curious what the ambient temperature is when you take the temperature of the ferments. Would it be a hassle to include that in your measurements?
The area I'm fermenting in is a conditioned space that has stayed between 19°-21°C for the duration of the ferment.
Thanks… since we hit 80 here yesterday, I wasn’t sure if the ambient temperature was impacting your measurements. It sure is impacting my grape vines - bud break galore yesterday.The area I'm fermenting in is a conditioned space that has stayed between 19°-21°C for the duration of the ferment.
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