Acid question

[M38A1]

My lady friend has done a couple batches of Mustang grapes and has had mixed results between a sweet vinegar and a pretty tasting nice red. She's also using a handwritten recipe where the grapes sit in a crock/sugar water and pretty much left alone. Well this weekend she kicked off a six gallon batch and left it to me and I'm scratching my head on what to do.

Here's what she/we did:
3 gallons washed mustang grapes, previously frozen
12.5 pounds of sugar (28 cups sugar/14 cups water as a reduced SS) SG:1.103
3tsp pectic enzyme
3 tsp yeast nutrient
1tsp yeast energizer
1/4 tsp k-meta

She asked I toss some EC-1118 at it after 24 hours to let the k-meta do it's thing. So after 24 hours I did. Now at 48hrs post yeast pitch nothing has happened. This EC-1118 has always been a workhorse for me on other stuff, but as of tonight nada, zip, zero bubbles. So I ran a pH and got 2.8. Other than what's presented here, I'm sort of stuck on what to do next. That's a really high pH in my opinion and I was thinking it needs to be down around 3.2-3.4.

Question #1:
Is there a strong possibility the EC-1118 just can't buck the 2.8pH and after 48 hours that's why I don't see any active fermentation? She's pitched a simple bread yeast at basically the same thing and it kicked off.

Question #2:
Should I try small additions of K-bicarbonate to get the pH closer to 3.2? This might be a bit problematic since she dumped all the grapes in the primary and not in a bag. Also, my understanding of k-bicarbonate additions is that you need to cold crash this when it's done fermenting. Is that correct? I don't have an icebox large enough for a 5gal carboy...

Any guidance would be appreciated. I don't have any other testing gear than my hydrometer and a pH meter.

 

[sour_grapes]

My lady friend has done a couple batches of Mustang grapes and has had mixed results between a sweet vinegar and a pretty tasting nice red. She's also using a handwritten recipe where the grapes sit in a crock/sugar water and pretty much left alone. Well this weekend she kicked off a six gallon batch and left it to me and I'm scratching my head on what to do.
.....
Any guidance would be appreciated.

Ummm, find a lady friend that doesn't start projects and expect you to figure out how to finish them?

 

[Arne]

What is the temp. of the must? Should probably be in the mid to upper 70's at least to get going if you are having problems.
Should probably start at a lower temp. but sometimes the yeasts get a bit picky. Might bring that ph down some, can't help you with if you have to crash it at the end or not. Arne.

 

[JohnT]

2.8 is a rather low ph. I would look into raising the PH with pot. bicarb.

I do not think that 1/4 tsp of kmeta would prevent ec-1118 from kicking off. You do want the must to be warmer than 60 degrees, preferably over 70.

 

[salcoco]

use some more EC1118 and develop a yeast starter once going add a little of the must once its going pitch into main batch. you can add water to elevate the ph, this will reduce the specific gravity but it seem high also,can be about 1.092 and still be a fine wine.

 

[M38A1]

Paul, lol but she's the chief bottle washer too!

Temp of the must has floated between 74 and 75*F. As for the 1/4tsp of k-meta, I've done that same routine with some other wines with no problem kicking off EC-1118. That just keeps circling back to a pH issue I think. I'll toss a little k-bicarbonate at it this evening and see what that does. I've done the water dilution thing in the past and it really didn't work out well in the end. Yeah, it's a high SG to start but in theory EC-1118 can handle 15% if I can just get this to kick off.

 

[Doug’s wines]

Doesn’t sound like a temp problem. I guessing the 1118 was well stored and in date, but could just be a pack that couldn’t get going in that hostile acid environment. Ph is a little low, but should start at that level with that yeast. I would make a 1118 starter, slowly add some must to the starter over the course of the day then pitch it.

Edit: I wouldn’t adjust the ph personally given it sounds like she’s done this before and probably likes the high acidity, but if I did, I would keep it down around 3 - 3.2 so it’s like a crisp Riesling.

 

[M38A1]

Doesn’t sound like a temp problem. I guessing the 1118 was well stored and in date, but could just be a pack that couldn’t get going in that hostile acid environment. Ph is a little low, but should start at that level with that yeast. I would make a 1118 starter, slowly add some must to the starter over the course of the day then pitch it.

Edit: I wouldn’t adjust the ph personally given it sounds like she’s done this before and probably likes the high acidity, but if I did, I would keep it down around 3 - 3.2 so it’s like a crisp Riesling.

So a 'starter' has been mentioned a couple times and honestly I don't know what that is. I hydrated the EC-1118 for about 20 minutes and it was definitely going well when I poured it in. Is that considered a 'starter'?

 

[cmason1957]

So a 'starter' has been mentioned a couple times and honestly I don't know what that is. I hydrated the EC-1118 for about 20 minutes and it was definitely going well when I poured it in. Is that considered a 'starter'?

When I say starter, what you have done is a first try at it. But, anytime I have issues, I get serious about acclimating the yeast to the environment they are going to working in. So mix up your yeast following directions, let it get going really good for that 20 minutes, then add in about the same amount of your wine liquid as you have yeast. Let it go for 20 minutes to an hour, then add in about the same amount of liquid as you now have, repeat a few times, until you have about half of your must now in the yeast batch, then mix it all together. If you get tired and only have about a fourth as much, it might work well, also.

 

[M38A1]

When I say starter, what you have done is a first try at it. But, anytime I have issues, I get serious about acclimating the yeast to the environment they are going to working in. So mix up your yeast following directions, let it get going really good for that 20 minutes, then add in about the same amount of your wine liquid as you have yeast. Let it go for 20 minutes to an hour, then add in about the same amount of liquid as you now have, repeat a few times, until you have about half of your must now in the yeast batch, then mix it all together. If you get tired and only have about a fourth as much, it might work well, also.

Ah! Thank you. I'll try that this evening.

 

[Doug’s wines]

@cmason1957 helped me put one together recently so consider him more authoritative, but here is what I recently did to get my tough start going. Made up a cup of the simple syrup you used as your base (2:1) in the wine and add the yeast to it (I added a tsp of nutrient and 1/3 tsp energizer as well, but don’t think it’s necessary). Let it get started (60 minutes), then add a cup of your must, let it recover (20-60 minutes), add 2 cups must and let it recover (20-60 minutes). Add 4 cups must, let recover, then. I added it to the must. Took off like a champ.

 

[M38A1]

@cmason1957 helped me put one together recently so consider him more authoritative, but here is what I recently did to get my tough start going. Made up a cup of the simple syrup you used as your base (2:1) in the wine and add the yeast to it (I added a tsp of nutrient and 1/3 tsp energizer as well, but don’t think it’s necessary). Let it get started (60 minutes), then add a cup of your must, let it recover (20-60 minutes), add 2 cups must and let it recover (20-60 minutes). Add 4 cups must, let recover, then. I added it to the must. Took off like a champ.

Thank you. I'll report back either this evening or tomorrow morning with hopefully positive results!

 

[cmason1957]

Thank you. I'll report back either this evening or tomorrow morning with hopefully positive results!

I don't suggest the extra sugar. The putting the yeast into just warm water and blooming it is to allow the yeast to wake up (and that's a technical term). I generally add some Go-Ferm, since ScottLabs recommends it, but if you don't have it, don't worry. Then you add your must, which has plenty of sugar for the yeast to eat. Nutrient and energizer at this point may be a bad idea also.

 

[Rice_Guy]

No experience with mustang grape
By the numbers, pH 2.8 is low, like a cranberry and treating like cranberry should fix it. Some folks add potassium bicarbonate as @Johnd noted, others use calcium carbonate (slower to react though). Her gravity is high therefore a high alcohol yeast like pasteur champagne.

I like to deal with low pH by adding a higher pH fruit. ex cranberry with apple or rhurbarb with peach. ? ? did she add water? ?
Vinegar smell suggests exposure to oxygen, keep the head space small.

 

[user 32114]

Ummm, find a lady friend that doesn't start projects and expect you to figure out how to finish them?

so spoiled_{grape now you picking on others, i hope you know you bout gave me a heart attack the other day,,,,

 

[sour_grapes]

so spoiled_{grape now you picking on others, i hope you know you bout gave me a heart attack the other day,,,,

How? By suggesting you get married?

 

[user 32114]

How? By suggesting you get married?

dang-it there you go again,

 

[M38A1]

Ok, little update.... I checked it last night before bed and I thought the grape must was 'riding higher' in the primary than in the morning. Hmmmmm..... Went to bed. This morning that grape must was even higher and I could hear it boiling underneath so I punched it down, stirred it a bit and I'd say it's off to the races without doing anything. Whew... Thanks for your ideas everyone but I think this is on it's way.

Rice_Guy - yes, this was three gallons of grapes and water to six gallons in the primary open top fermenter. I'll keep an eye on SG the next day or so and lightly squeeze these grapes then rack off to a carboy and let it finish PF there under an airlock. At least that's the plan as of right now.

 

[M38A1]

So here's another 'stupid question'.....

I just tasted some of the must and it actually makes my lips/tongue tingle with the acid. I've not run a SG on this to see how far it is since the must is still pretty sweet indicating a fair amount of sugar still present. Can I toss a bit if K-bicarb at it now, measure pH and do this over a couple days to get it in range while it's fermenting? Can I wait until it's done and do it then recognizing it might stress the yeast the further it goes?

 

[Rice_Guy]

There are no stupid questions, I used to answer the tech center phone and judge what type of answer to give based on the skill level/ if trade secrets were involved, ,, which a question reflected.

At this point you have a fresh vigorous fermentation. It is producing CO2 which will drop the pH and increase the TA. This turns into carbonic acid AKA soda type carbonation. in your mind compare fresh soda versus flat. ,,,, Is this the difference you taste in your new wine.
Sugar is magic. It hides a lot of faults.

For the learning curve if you could run numbers as is, ,,, and then heat 100 ml in a microwave for 60 seconds, carefully stir out the CO2, cool, and rerun, how much difference is there?