Fermentation vessels

[mstrick96]

I've read about two methods for fermenting wines.

One uses the same vessel with an airlock And some headspace for the entire fermentation process. The oxygen in the headspace is all that sill be available for initial yeast growth.

The other uses an open container for primary fermentation for a few days and then racks the wine off into a carboy with an airlock. Plenty of oxygen will be available for the primary fermentation.

The second method seems to be preferred, even though the first method would seem to be simpler.

Why is the first method not more commonly used for home winemaking? Is there a reason that it should not be used?

 

[crushday]

I used the first method you describe for over 100 wine kits. The fermentation vessel I used was a FastFerment 7.9g conical. I would start the kit by adding the juice and the yeast and close the lid until the must was fermented dry. No stirring, no fuss and perfect wine (as much as a kit produces "perfect" wine).

I haven't made a wine kit for three years now preferring real grapes (frozen and fresh) over wine kits.

 

[G259]

I'll go the other way, I always pitch yeast, then just lay the cover on top, to keep things from falling in. The CO2 from the fermentation keeps the wine safe, and the loose lid allows for easy daily stirring. Lock it down when your hydrometer tells you to ~1.020SG.

Wine is very forgiving, let that work for you!

 

[Rice_Guy]

Some basics:
Yeast need oxygen to build cells and go through the reproduction process. A juice with no oxygen will have a sluggish or stuck fermentation. Once we are at 50% sugar reduction yeast reproduction stops so at this position adding oxygen doesn’t really matter to the yeast.
* a reductive/ no oxygen environment preserves molecules which contribute fruity aromas. An oxidative/ cover with towel environment has less fruity notes left. If you are doing a big red wine where flavors come from tannin and oak products the oxygen doesn’t matter. With extremely fruity styles the oxygen kills the fruit. ,,,, some of open vs closed is a style issue. Another potential problem is browning. Red wine has poly phenols that are antioxidants and help retain color where as white grapes without polyphenols are subject to browning.
* mold is a risk with grape skins floating. An easy way to prevent mold is to submerge the pulp twice a day. To get access the towel method helps.
* oxidized ethyl alcohol (acetaldehyde) occurs with oxygen and alcohol. Early in the ferment there isn’t significant alcohol so acetaldehyde doesn’t reach significant/ tasty levels and the towel method is fine. At 50% sugar consumption the yeast are slowing down so the flavor risk increases.
* micro oxidation especially in reds modifies the flavor in a positive way. Again what style of wine? Fruits and whites don’t improve for the most part. industrial wine is in large tanks where the surface to volume ratio is low they tend to be more reductive. To produce an oxidative wine slow oxygen will get bubbled in a stone on the bottom of the tank. ,,, Some of your question is only relevant to home wine makers with small volumes and high surface to volume ratios.

 

[BigDaveK]

I'm starting to take this hobby very seriously and it seems @Rice_Guy always sends me deeper in the rabbit hole. Wish I started 20 years ago.

@mstrick96 I think it's important to be mindful of where the recipe is coming from. Is it reliable? I've seen recipes that say to put a lid and airlock on the primary after a while and let it finish and I can understand that. I've also read about transferring to secondary not racking. Racking implies getting the wine off "all" the lees. Yeast have a negative charge so - depending on the ingredients - they could bond with positive charged particles and settle to the bottom, potentially leading to a stuck fermentation if they're left behind.

So, @Rice_Guy , are you suggesting that for my country fruit wines a lid and airlock (say at around 1.030) for a reductive environment would benefit the wine? I'm trying to make the best damn wine that I can so I'm curious.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I'm starting to take this hobby very seriously . . . .So, Rice_Guy are you suggesting that for my country fruit wines a lid and airlock (say at around 1.030) for a reductive environment would benefit the wine? I'm trying to make the best damn wine that I can so

1) investigate contests if your goal is quality, investigate a local club as Cincinnati has a group. Everything is based on taste and there is a lot of learning on finding out what normally goes wrong. ,,,, you can’t fix something if you can’t name what it is.
2) run high fruit solids. If you look at comments as 1978 was a good year this normally translates to more aromatics to start with. Another approach is never use water @mainshipfred did his peach last fall with just peach, I don’t need to taste it to know it is a wow peach.
3) next priority I would reduce oxygen exposure. This starts with pressing and continues with each racking or sampling and how much metabisulphite. As you suggested above I try to rack early where sugar is left and still some CO2 production.
4) investigate yeast that increase aromatics and what the nitrogen/ nutrient requirements are, toss out your chemical yeast nutrient and get organic nitrogen. Unhappy yeast can make powerful off odors that overpower fruit.
5) finally I get to where looking at reduced temp as worth while. ,,,, example low nutrients will stress yeast so they make H2S which in a month has produced mercaptans (meaty taste). You will detect the mercaptan at ppb concentration levels and it will cover over the fruity aromatics. ,,,, Room temp/ 20C isn’t that bad. Yeah basement/ 15C is better but there is so much loss of product quality in 2) 3) 4) that can hide this gain. Stay away from radiators and hot summer 30C because it stresses yeast.

Dave, finally as a yeast farmer have you looked at the Scott Labs handbook. Lots of practical info aimed at folks who have to be good to sell their product.

 

[winemaker81]

Why is the first method not more commonly used for home winemaking? Is there a reason that it should not be used?

A totally practical reason for using an open bucket is getting pomace (grape or otherwise) out of the container. I visualize trying to remove pomace from a carboy and shudder.

 

[BigDaveK]

Dave, finally as a yeast farmer have you looked at the Scott Labs handbook. Lots of practical info aimed at folks who have to be good to sell their product.

Thanks!
I originally came across their site too early in my wine making. I couldn't relate and didn't bookmark. Things are different now. Bookmarked, thanks again!!

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

A totally practical reason for using an open bucket is getting pomace (grape or otherwise) out of the container. I visualize trying to remove pomace from a carboy and shudder.

High powered Shop Vac

 

[NorCal]

I ferments reds in an open container and whites under airlock (stirring daily) in as cold environment as possible, for reasons @Rice_Guy described.

 

[mstrick96]

Great help from everyone! The personal experiences are very encouraging.

I have Jack Keller's book "Home Winemaking" and based on @Rice_Guy "s recommendation have downloaded the Scott Labs Handbook to put on my Kindle.

I think that for now, I want to stick with juice wines (kit, frozen, from concentrate, or grocery store) and will keep my batches around one of two gallons at most, is there another good book that will give me quality instructions and recipes?

Recommendations?

 

[winemaker81]

High powered Shop Vac

I shudder worse, visualizing cleaning the filter on mine ....

 

[Rice_Guy]

my two favorite: The New Cider Makers Handbook and Mead maker.
they are not grape related so they tell why one should target NN instead of an assumed grapes always fall within “normal NN” OK recipe. Ken Schramm and ?. Joulicourt

I want to stick with juice wines (kit, frozen, from concentrate, or grocery store) and will keep my batches around one of two gallons at most, is there another good book that will give me quality instructions and recipes?
Recommendations?

For testing I like 4.5 liters > 4 liter when racked > 3.78 liter rack again > if you have to rack a third time consider a few marbles
industry likes corn syrup, (accounting) read the label

 

[winemaker81]

I think that for now, I want to stick with juice wines (kit, frozen, from concentrate, or grocery store) and will keep my batches around one of two gallons at most, is there another good book that will give me quality instructions and recipes?

MoreWine! has numerous free manuals that cover pretty much all facets of winemaking. I am a firm believer in research and self-education.

However, for your intended ingredient list, you don't need another recipe book. For kits? Buy from reputable vendors such as FWK, WE, RJS, and others, read the instructions, and follow tips listed in the Kit Wine forum.

For grape juices (fresh or frozen), adjust sugar and acid (if necessary), and ferment like kits. For non-grape juices? Pretty much the same thing, although you're more likely to need to adjust sugar and acid. And you'll get better results from juices made for winemaking, not for drinking, as table juices are lower quality.

Where recipes come in handy is fresh fruit, although for most common fruits the recipes are fairly similar. Testing for sugar is absolutely necessary, and testing for acid is a good idea. One problem with recipes is most are a one-size-fits-all, e.g., "add juice of 2 lemons", which hopefully gets you in the ballpark but is far from exact. IME the majority of recipes are old one, where testing with something as simple as a hydrometer wasn't in the picture.

Once you are comfortable with the basics of winemaking, if you want to make a specific wine, search for recipes. Read lot of recipes, and you'll be able to cull the ones aren't as good. Plus post a new thread with the selected recipe, asking for feedback.

Search for something like "raspberry wine recipe", read a dozen recipes, and post your impressions. I'm interested in your reaction to what you read.

 

[cmason1957]

Great help from everyone! The personal experiences are very encouraging.

I have Jack Keller's book "Home Winemaking" and based on @Rice_Guy "s recommendation have downloaded the Scott Labs Handbook to put on my Kindle.

I think that for now, I want to stick with juice wines (kit, frozen, from concentrate, or grocery store) and will keep my batches around one of two gallons at most, is there another good book that will give me quality instructions and recipes?

Recommendations?

You might consider any of the books by Daniel Pambianchi, I have read Techniques in Home Winemaking, Kit Winemaking and have his newest one to read Modern Home Winemaking, be prepared for some to be over your head, unless your chemistry background is solid, mine is not, but there is plenty to learn even if you decide not to do something.

 

[Jusatele]

I have used a lot of different kinds of fermenters in my experience of brewing both wine and beer.
there are 2 reasons I do not use carboys for primary fermentation, one is the small entry point makes getting stuff in there and out a pain, the second is the small entrance makes cleaning a pain. there is a third just for wine making is that how do you do a efficient punch down through that small entrance, it would be a pain.
I have used conicals and really like them, but they can get pricey and then there is all the o rings needed incase a leak starts. I do really like conicals.
Stainless Steel corney kegs work nice but are pricey and you need to ruin a lid to put a hole for an air lock, I like corney kegs
but my favorite fermenter for wine is a food grade bucket. they are cheap and have a great big opening, you can modify them as a bottling bucket. also if you get a few scratches in them, use them for a sanitizer bucket. (can't do that easily with a scratched up conical). Plus they are easy to source.

Most buckets are going have a diamond on the bottom with a number in it. the numbers 1 and 7 are not recommended to use. the numbers 3 and 6 are not safe. That leaves us with 2, 4, and 5, of those the number 2 is recommended. Now if you are in a certain big box home improvement store and look at those buckets they sell all over the place, I can almost guarantee that they will have a number 2. How to Identify Food-Grade Plastics | POLAVER

 

[winemaker81]

I suspect I am going to piss you off here

Nope. I stated what I believe. If you like that, or don't like that, or don't care? Not an issue for me.

 

[mstrick96]

@balatonwine I would rather not see this thread get sidetracked onto a completely different topic. I'm trying to learn and am getting some very helpful responses. @winemaker81 and the other responders are giving me the information I need.

Perhaps your discussion would fit better in a different thread?

 

[mstrick96]

@Rice_Guy I just ordered The New Cider Makers Handbook and @cmason1957, I put Pambianchi's books on my wishlist.

Thanks!

 

[Jim Welch]

I've read about two methods for fermenting wines.

One uses the same vessel with an airlock And some headspace for the entire fermentation process. The oxygen in the headspace is all that sill be available for initial yeast growth.

The other uses an open container for primary fermentation for a few days and then racks the wine off into a carboy with an airlock. Plenty of oxygen will be available for the primary fermentation.

The second method seems to be preferred, even though the first method would seem to be simpler.

Why is the first method not more commonly used for home winemaking? Is there a reason that it should not be used?

Not really answering your questions but relating my limited experience. As others have noted in other threads there is more than one way to make good wine.
I’ve used 10 gal Brute buckets for most of my wines. I make mostly reds. Made two whites in them in 2019 in my temperature controlled fermentation chamber. First batch, a Pinot Gris kit I racked into a Carboy in a timely fashion. Second batch, a Riesling kit I was a bit late in racking due to unexpected work situations and it very slightly oxidized. The flavor to my palate is fine but it took on a very slight brownish tint.
I decided not to do anymore whites in a bucket after that because of my work, it is very unpredictable.
This past fall I bought a BrewTech SS Brew Bucket for white wines. Just after buying that one new I found two gently used ones on Craigslist for the price of my new one so I bought them.
They are problematic for a 6 gallon kit since they have a 6.9 gallon capacity but I’ve devised a work around for that. I’ve used these to do what I would call a modified closed ferment on several white wine kits and am experimenting doing the same with red wines with skins. I’ve done two FWK Forte reds that are bulk aging in carboys now and I put together two more of these yesterday afternoon and pitched the yeast starters today on my lunch break.
This is already a long post and I don’t want to turn it into a novel but if you or anyone else is interested in more details I’d be happy to relate my experiences. I’ve done 4 white wines and 2 reds with this method so far not counting the 2 I just started and all have been very clean ferments with nice happy yeasties with no detectable bad smells that all fermented bone dry at 0.993-0.994 on a low range hydrometer. It seems promising but of course only time will tell!