Other Finer Wine Kits new process white wines

[Matteo_Lahm]

Matteo, would this also apply to people making red wine not in 7.9-gallon buckets? I make triple batches normally in food safe Brute containers. They have tops but they do not seal so I suppose I would lose the benefit of extended time on the skins. I do compensate for this in a way, though, because I do not just punch down the bags of skins on a daily basis, I also give them a good squeeze twice a day until SG is in the 1.000-1.010 range, at which time I rack to carboys.

if the bucket has a top, wrap it with some shrink wrap when it gets down to about 1.010. I once fermented 40 gallons of crushed grapes in a 50 gallon drum and I did three week extended maceration. As long as it’s closed and not disturbed, it’s not a problem. Remember that CO2 is heavier and when you are down to 1.010, it’s still producing gas and that will protect the wine as long as you don’t open it.

 

[sour_grapes]

Matteo, all I can say is it was black. Now on a grey scale, I cannot give a number. I just went down to the wine area and took some shots of the carboy, and I drew out a glass of the wine for pictures. See below.

On the bright side, it seems to me without any data that it is slightly lighter than when I transferred it. Not sure of that, just a general feeling.

View attachment 86458View attachment 86459View attachment 86460View attachment 86461

In many places in the world the principal colors of wines are described, not as "white" and "red," but as "white" and "black." So you are just on par with those places!

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

What photograph are you referencing? I don't recall taking a photograph of the fermenter.

However, when I did make the transfer, every drop of the liquid in the primary fermenter was saved and moved to the secondary fermenter. The only thing that went down the drain was a black mass at the bottom of the primary fermenter, which was about 1/8" thick and tar-like. If I understand correctly what you are saying, the bentonite was in this mass, and the bentonite lying on the bottom of the fermenter is supposed to pull the charcoal out of the liquid above it. Is this what you mean? I am not being intentionally obtuse, but I am not understanding how this would work given how I have used bentonite in the past.

Lastly, and this may be material, Packet A did not appear to have bentonite in it as everything in that packet dissolved immediately upon addition to the wine in the primary. That has not been my experience with bentonite, particularly in a cold liquid. Also, it did not have the characteristic consistency or color of bentonite, which I have always seen as a light gray color and granular.

important update. just had a chance to talk with my guys. All you need to do is add the keisosel and chitosan, wait two weeks and rack it. It clears everything out.

 

[Rocky]

important update. just had a chance to talk with my guys. All you need to do is add the keisosel and chitosan, wait two weeks and rack it. It clears everything out.

Matteo, just to be clear, are you saying I don't need to add bentonite?

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Matteo, just to be clear, are you saying I don't need to add bentonite?

that’s correct.

 

[Rocky]

that’s correct.

Willco.

 

[Mekpdue]

Great thread. As info, I started a FWK Riesling on March 28, in a 7.9 gal fermenter. Initially, my SG readings were 1.114 after a great stir right at 6 gallons. I stirred the black must more and still got 1.114 (a bit high on the final alcohol was my thinking). After emailing with Matt, we thought the concentrate bag was overfilled so I added some more spring water to bring it down a bit to 1.1005 (so it's sitting around 6.25 gallons). I added packet A (starter kit) the nutrient bag was no thicker than normal as compared to the red kits. That said, if there was bentonite in the packet, I would be surprised as there didn't appear to be any increase in mass or any discoloration of the white nutrients (bentonite is usually gray/dark gray). I added yeast and the yeast nutrients (again no appearance of bentonite) on schedule. I kept the lid on loosely over 5 days and while I had plenty of foam, there was no clearing.

Saturday (4/2), the must was still black, and I sealed the lid on the fermentation bucket. I am still bubbling away, slower as it should be.

Now, from what I am reading, when I rack out of the fermentation bucket into my carboy (4/12), I am to follow directions and the clearing agents will clear the charcoal. Correct?

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Great thread. As info, I started a FWK Riesling on March 28, in a 7.9 gal fermenter. Initially, my SG readings were 1.114 after a great stir right at 6 gallons. I stirred the black must more and still got 1.114 (a bit high on the final alcohol was my thinking). After emailing with Matt, we thought the concentrate bag was overfilled so I added some more spring water to bring it down a bit to 1.1005 (so it's sitting around 6.25 gallons). I added packet A (starter kit) the nutrient bag was no thicker than normal as compared to the red kits. That said, if there was bentonite in the packet, I would be surprised as there didn't appear to be any increase in mass or any discoloration of the white nutrients (bentonite is usually gray/dark gray). I added yeast and the yeast nutrients (again no appearance of bentonite) on schedule. I kept the lid on loosely over 5 days and while I had plenty of foam, there was no clearing.

Saturday (4/2), the must was still black, and I sealed the lid on the fermentation bucket. I am still bubbling away, slower as it should be.

Now, from what I am reading, when I rack out of the fermentation bucket into my carboy (4/12), I am to follow directions and the clearing agents will clear the charcoal. Correct?

That’s correct. After you rack, proceed directly to the clearing agents.
matteo

 

[Rocky]

Great thread. As info, I started a FWK Riesling on March 28, in a 7.9 gal fermenter. Initially, my SG readings were 1.114 after a great stir right at 6 gallons. I stirred the black must more and still got 1.114 (a bit high on the final alcohol was my thinking). After emailing with Matt, we thought the concentrate bag was overfilled so I added some more spring water to bring it down a bit to 1.1005 (so it's sitting around 6.25 gallons). I added packet A (starter kit) the nutrient bag was no thicker than normal as compared to the red kits. That said, if there was bentonite in the packet, I would be surprised as there didn't appear to be any increase in mass or any discoloration of the white nutrients (bentonite is usually gray/dark gray). I added yeast and the yeast nutrients (again no appearance of bentonite) on schedule. I kept the lid on loosely over 5 days and while I had plenty of foam, there was no clearing.

Saturday (4/2), the must was still black, and I sealed the lid on the fermentation bucket. I am still bubbling away, slower as it should be.

Now, from what I am reading, when I rack out of the fermentation bucket into my carboy (4/12), I am to follow directions and the clearing agents will clear the charcoal. Correct?

Mike, I am still a little confused on this point and I think a lot of us are learning OJT. My Muscat is in a carboy and fermentation has ceased at SG 0.995. My direction from Matteo, with which I concur, is to add the clarifiers and they should take care of the remaining charcoal. We need to recognize that this is a new product, rife with all the pitfalls that entails. I am willing to learn along with everyone else, mainly because the reds from FWK that I have made are very good.

As the great sage, Archie Bunker, once observed, "Romania wasn't built in a day."

 

[Mekpdue]

Mike, I am still a little confused on this point and I think a lot of us are learning OJT. My Muscat is in a carboy and fermentation has ceased at SG 0.995. My direction from Matteo, with which I concur, is to add the clarifiers and they should take care of the remaining charcoal. We need to recognize that this is a new product, rife with all the pitfalls that entails. I am willing to learn along with everyone else, mainly because the reds from FWK that I have made are very good.

As the great sage, Archie Bunker, once observed, "Romania wasn't built in a day."

Agree with you 100%. We are learning and assisting in rolling out a new product. I don’t mind, and consider it a learning tool for me too. I’ve used bentonite before, but not charcoal dust, and I must say, when you see the ‘white’ juice turn black it’s a strange feeling.

I am also glad for the sharing of information by others on this site, and for @Matteo_Lahm to offer support as we help each other during this new process.

Looking forward to reading others thoughts, modifications, and successes.

 

[Rocky]

Update: 4-5-22

I added the Kieselsol and Chitosan about an hour ago. Will report what transpires.

 

[Mekpdue]

I added the Kieselsol and Chitosan about an hour ago. Will report what transpires.

Rocky, can you post a picture of what this wine looks like at this stage?

 

[Rocky]

Rocky, can you post a picture of what this wine looks like at this stage?

Great idea, Mike. Here are two shots at 2:47 PM and I added the K and C at around Noon, today. Very encouraging for such a short time, particularly at the neck, where the charcoal seems to be almost gone.

Edit: April 5 at 4:40 PM adding a shot of the wine before addition.

 

[Mekpdue]

Thanks @Rocky This will be a good benchmark to see how the FWK white wines clear up. I know once the carbon is stirred in (pre-ferment) the must is black and it threw off my conception as to how it should would look, even though the directions state it will be dark. I will say that your Moscato has cleared from a black blend to an interesting grey (post fermentation) and like you said, a surprise that within 3 hours you see it clearing on the neck.

What an interesting wine making story to tell and show our friends what their wine looked like when it began. Well, maybe show them after a few glasses have been drunk and they say it's good! Or, maybe just keep this part quiet.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Agree with you 100%. We are learning and assisting in rolling out a new product. I don’t mind, and consider it a learning tool for me too. I’ve used bentonite before, but not charcoal dust, and I must say, when you see the ‘white’ juice turn black it’s a strange feeling.

I am also glad for the sharing of information by others on this site, and for @Matteo_Lahm to offer support as we help each other during this new process.

Looking forward to reading others thoughts, modifications, and successes.

these kits employ professional winemaking techniques. When we researched carbon, we found out that it is widely used for white wines. The enzymes in the pigments brown so quickly that agents like carbon are necessary to produce wines with acceptable color for sale.

 

[Fencepost]

I had the Riesling in my cart at Label Peelers... then I saw a few of these comments/threads and hit the pause button... concerned about spending time on something if there are still issues. Are these FW white kits a go or no go, or hold tight for a little longer? @Rocky @Matteo_Lahm ?

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

I had the Riesling in my cart at Label Peelers... then I saw a few of these comments/threads and hit the pause button... concerned about spending time on something if there are still issues. Are these FW white kits a go or no go, or hold tight for a little longer? @Rocky @Matteo_Lahm ?

Your concern is valid, I'll share my perspective for what it's worth (not much I know )....Matteo wouldn't have launched them without doing the homework, I trust what he says. Not to call out others on the forum in anyway, but I think that the chatter you are seeing in this thread is due to the fact that some have deviated somewhat from the instructions, or it's still too early in the process to know the outcome and they are nervous, or are simply taken back by the fact that white wine is now black. I trust Matteo and will follow his instructions to the letter, therefore I went ahead with my purchases.

 

[winemaker81]

I had the Riesling in my cart at Label Peelers... then I saw a few of these comments/threads and hit the pause button... concerned about spending time on something if there are still issues. Are these FW white kits a go or no go, or hold tight for a little longer?

I agree with @She’sgonnakillme. Matteo and his people have and are doing the research, and IMO the chatter regards an edge case, e.g., a not unexpected (IMO) deviation from the plan. I expect it's going to work out fine -- the issue is charcoal precipitating, and this is not a new situation. Charcoal has been used in wine for many decades.

My niece has a SB in process (she unseals the fermenter Saturday), and mine should ship this week. I'm going to follow the directions and see where things go. I have confidence that I'll get a good result.

 

[Rocky]

I had the Riesling in my cart at Label Peelers... then I saw a few of these comments/threads and hit the pause button... concerned about spending time on something if there are still issues. Are these FW white kits a go or no go, or hold tight for a little longer? @Rocky @Matteo_Lahm ?

Fence, that is your call, but I can say I am very encouraged by the latest developments in my Muscat. I believe we are getting close to or have reached the answer. But, again, your call.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

It’s always your decision on how you spend your money. But I can tell you that we’ve tested this and if you follow the instructions, you will get a predictable result. FYI, we have updated the instructions to explain that the carbonwill be cleared after the polishing phase with the clarifying agents.