Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[Matteo_Lahm]

Started my first Forte Merlot yesterday. Put a brew belt on the fermenter, this morning just @70degrees. My yeast starter hasn’t started as of the morning, it’s been about 12 hours. If I don’t see any activity can I just add it to the must tonight? The basement is cool around 55-60 degrees.

Just so I understand, you have not added the starter to the must yet?

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Just so I understand, you have not added the starter to the must yet?

I just reread your comment. Put the starter someplace warmer. If you have it in your basement and it’s below 60, that’s why it’s not getting going.

 

[winemaker81]

Started my first Forte Merlot yesterday. Put a brew belt on the fermenter, this morning just @70degrees. My yeast starter hasn’t started as of the morning, it’s been about 12 hours. If I don’t see any activity can I just add it to the must tonight? The basement is cool around 55-60 degrees.

My starters were made at ~65 F, and there was not a lot of action in the bottle. However, they all took off well.

The starters sat next to the fermenters all night, so the temperature was very similar. I suspect that having little temperature difference between the must and the starter helps, as the yeast doesn't experience temperature shock. Following on Matteo's advice, I'd target 70 F for the starter.

 

[nanook37]

This process also works with wine that’s finished. Private message me

Wish I would have known that before I bottled my Sauv Blanc...

 

[katmike57]

I see some whites are back on Label Peelers website.

 

[Swedeman]

I am not a chemist, but I think what you are saying is that it was the result of some level of oxidation. That is what happens to apples, potatoes, etc. and the solution when cutting them up is to soak the cut fruits or vegetables in acidulated water to avoid the browning. The "browning" is the result of the reaction with oxygen and is not only cosmetic but does change the taste of the fruits and vegetables.

Speaking from a biochemistry point of view, not knowing the FWK process, there is an enzyme in grapes (and plants) responsible for postharvest browning of crushed or bruised fruit called polyphenol oxidase (PPO). You can inactivate that enzyme thermally, it has a rather low thermostabilty where inactivation increases with increasing time and temperature. My speculation is that the mild heat treatment FWK is using isn't harsh enough the inactivate the enzyme. I can't recall data but as a ballpark number, the inactivation you get in minutes at 80 degrees C would take an hour of more at 60 degrees C.

 

[bakervinyard]

I’ll double check both temperatures and I’ll place the starter next to the must. My wine room is heated but the misses turns it down because it’s the “ basement”. If both are close in temperature in the morning I’ll add the starter to the must. Thanks for the quick responses. Bakervinyard

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Let me add another detail. The browning that happens at the juice stage is a form of oxidation BUT it is entirely different from what happens when it oxidizes as wine. It is called polyphenyl oxidase and it’s of the plant material only.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

Let me add another detail. The browning that happens at the juice stage is a form of oxidation BUT it is entirely different from what happens when it oxidizes as wine. It is called polyphenyl oxidase and it’s of the plant material only.

mind blown! Should have paid more attention in biology class lol

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Speaking from a biochemistry point of view, not knowing the FWK process, there is an enzyme in grapes (and plants) responsible for postharvest browning of crushed or bruised fruit called polyphenol oxidase (PPO). You can inactivate that enzyme thermally, it has a rather low thermostabilty where inactivation increases with increasing time and temperature. My speculation is that the mild heat treatment FWK is using isn't harsh enough the inactivate the enzyme. I can't recall data but as a ballpark number, the inactivation you get in minutes at 80 degrees C would take an hour of more at 60 degrees C.

Correct. It’s the trade-off for less processing. I like that you guys are on this journey with us. We are blurring the lines between making wine from fresh grapes and kits and it’s a work in progress. Needless to say, I’m having a lot of fun dialoguing with you guys.

 

[Swedeman]

We are blurring the lines between making wine from fresh grapes and kits and it’s a work in progress.

That is what I as a professional like about your concept, where you have one foot in each area and are pushing the boundaries for the benefit of the consumers.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

That is what I as a professional like about your concept, where you have one foot in each area and are pushing the boundaries for the benefit of the consumers.

I really appreciate you saying that. Thank you.

 

[Cap Puncher]

Matteo,
Have you looked into adding Glutastar to the white wine FWK? I believe it is like OPTI-white on steroids. It is supposed to preserve color & aromatics from pre & post fermentation oxidation. Maybe something to test out (if you haven't already)? I've used it on a Chardonnay and a Riesling, I think the color and aromatics on both are great.

 

[Brant]

FWK questions (again)...

Sorry for all the questions!

I want to bulk age my FWK forte p. sirah for about 12 months. I'm still in the fermenting stage but want to know what I should post ferment.

Once I get to step 5, (degassing, stabilizing and clarifying the wine), it states to rack and degass which I plan to do. Then the instructions say to add the stabilizing packet (Packet D) that comes in the FWK kit states that it will add proper levels of SO2. It also says the potassium sorbate will prevent effervescence. I assume this Packet D has both Kmeta and KSorb in it? It's one packet with little white pills.

The instructions also state, if you plan to age your wine longer than 10 months, add an additional 1/8 tsp of Kmeta or NAmeta.

Then the instructions say to add the clearing agents and oak.

So with all of that said, my question is that if I plan to bulk age for 12 months should I skip adding Packet D (Kmeta/Ksorbate blend) and just rack and add 1/4 tsp of Kmeta and call it good? At 3 month intervals, rack and add another 1/4 tsp of Kmeta? And skip clearing until a couple weeks before I bottle?

I've seen people mention not adding Sorbate unless you plan to backsweeten. I also seen people mention not adding clearing agents until right before bottling. I also plan to bottle with a filter/pump so is adding clearing agents worthless? I like the idea of limiting the additions of wine agents to only what is necessary. If there is no benefit to adding all this stuff if I'm not going to bottle right away, does it make sense to skip the sorbate/kmeta packet and clarifiers and just add my own kmeta and let time and filtering do the business of clarifying?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make the best wine possible without doing a bunch of extra stuff that adds no value and possibly hurts the quality of the wine in the long run.

 

[winemaker81]

@Brant, ask questions now! Don't wait until you need an immediate answer!

Sorbate is added to all kits as a preventive measure, to help beginners NOT produce purple mini-volcanos, which will happen if the wine is not fermented dry. Kit instructions are optimized for beginners who have no experienced help. If you are using a hydrometer and getting a low enough reading, sorbate should not be necessary for non-backsweetened wines. After bulk aging a year, you should be fine.

Add 1/4 tsp K-meta every 3 months and during each racking after fermentation is complete.

FWK Packet D is K-meta/sorbate, and most vendors appear to be combining them as of a few years ago. I date sorbate packages and drop 'em in a drawer. If I make a backsweetened wine, they get used, else I bin them a year or so later. Sorbate has a limited shelf life, and since I have no idea how long the packet sat in a warehouse, I exercise caution and bin them. It's far cheaper to buy sorbate as needed and NOT have to unbottle and recork a batch, and there's no mess to clean up.

I add fining agents right after fermentation, as it gets the gross lees out. Once a wine goes into bulk aging, unless there is a build-up of gross lees (and after fining there shouldn't be), I do not rack as it's not necessary. Fine lees is expended yeast hulls and can be left in. Look up "sur lie" and "battonage".

Filtering is NOT for clearing the wine, it's for polishing. If you have a cloudy wine, you will probably plug the filter, so use fining agents and/or give it time. I haven't filtered in decades, but when I did, that was done shortly before bottling.

 

[bakervinyard]

Forte Merlot update. I checked the temperature of the must and the bottle of yeast at 5:30 this morning. They were close in temperature so I added the yeast to the must. Checked must at 3:00 P.M. and it has started to foam. Thanks for the help.
Bakervinyard

 

[Brant]

Bryan *winemaker81*- another question for you...

After primary fermentation is complete and I rack to carboy, add kmeta, fining agents, etc., do you see any problem with leaving in this state for 6+ weeks? I think the norm would be to add fining agents, wait about 2-3 weeks and rerack to remove gross lees. Any issue with leaving gross lees hanging out in the bottom of the carboy for a month longer than normal? The reason I ask is because I'll be out of town for a while.

I should mention that I will have 3 full days between 1st racking and leaving town so, technically, I could rack from primary on day 15 (as per instructions), add fining and kmeta and then rack again 3 days later before leaving. Do 3 days sound like enough time after fining to drop out the majority of gross lees? The kit comes with chitosan and kieselsol but I have bentonite on hand and could add that as well if it would help.

Really appreciate your help and advice!

 

[winemaker81]

After primary fermentation is complete and I rack to carboy, add kmeta, fining agents, etc., do you see any problem with leaving in this state for 6+ weeks? I think the norm would be to add fining agents, wait about 2-3 weeks and rerack to remove gross lees. Any issue with leaving gross lees hanging out in the bottom of the carboy for a month longer than normal? The reason I ask is because I'll be out of town for a while.

I'd be very leery of leaving wine on the gross lees that long. The likelihood of picking up off flavors is high.

In your position, I'd rack and immediately add the fining agents. Rack again before you leave, as most of the gross lees typically drops within a few days. It's not perfect, but may be the best you can do. Expect to rack again when you get home.

BTW -- if you type "@<user ID>" the system will notify the person you tagged.

 

[pour750ml]

Matteo,
Have you looked into adding Glutastar to the white wine FWK? I believe it is like OPTI-white on steroids. It is supposed to preserve color & aromatics from pre & post fermentation oxidation. Maybe something to test out (if you haven't already)? I've used it on a Chardonnay and a Riesling, I think the color and aromatics on both are great.

@Matteo_Lahm
Wondering if you could share some insights regarding @Cap Puncher's questions.

 

[jgmann67]

I'd be very leery of leaving wine on the gross lees that long. The likelihood of picking up off flavors is high.

In your position, I'd rack and immediately add the fining agents. Rack again before you leave, as most of the gross lees typically drops within a few days. It's not perfect, but may be the best you can do. Expect to rack again when you get home.

BTW -- if you type "@<user ID>" the system will notify the person you tagged.

I would be leery as well. But, I’m struggling with the use of the term “gross lees” here. To me, “gross lees” are chunky detritus to me - seeds and depleted skins. Wine should absolutely never sit on them once your primary fermentation is done.

But, given the description, it sounds to me like we’re talking about fine lees… silt, dead yeasts and solids, that generally sit at the bottom of a carboy (and can impart some nice flavors into the wine). It’s true, cleaner is better.

Am I reading it wrong?