FlexTank instead of oak barrel...really interesting

[sdelli]

You guys need to get out more .

Flex tanks have been independently tested in both the wine trade magazines . Wbm & w&v .

Most of the research came from early negative experience with oxidisation in plastic containers , changing the formulation and wall thickness allowed the dialling in of permeability rates upto and including exclusion. There is nothing complicated about it , basic chemistry .

These have been used commercially for over 10 years and there use is becoming increasingly common, 1000 wineries in the USA alone according to w&v magazine . Commercial makers wouldn't risk hundreds of thousands of dollars if they didn't work.

If you don't believe oxygen can permeate plastic , take a finished carboy of wine , rack it into a plastic water jug like those used for office water coolers , fill it right up and put a solid bung in and seal it with wax .
Wait 6 months , then cry over your oxidized wine.

I hear ya..... My comments were based on the information that his thread has brought forward. It is ALL based on the manufacturer information. I would be very interested in seeing more information on this type of storage from a different source if you have one! If it is indeed as good as you say and been around as long as you say..... The art of free competition in the great USA should have others as well..... And yes, a patent will not stop competition from creating a little different product of the same type if it has demand.

 

[grapeman]

Everyone needs to make their own decisions as to what to use based on their circumstances. Is this right for you, sdelli? That is your choice. Others need to make their own decisions. I have taken the liberty of finding another paper for you researching the permeability and wine qualities and it can be found here: http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/HDPE-oxygen-permeability-Flextank.pdf .

 

[Runningwolf]

Based off all the comments I have heard from winemakers who have them I would not hesitate to buy one. I also know numerous wineries that have bought them during start up. I also see altavino as a very trusted resource.

 

[GreginND]

Breathable plastic is a hard pill to swallow.

Decades of research and reams of data from polymer scientists on oxygen permeability of any kind of plastic you can imagine is in the scientific literature.

I would say go to the library but you can start on google scholar:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=HDPE+plastic+oxygen+permeability+studies&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C35&as_vis=1

 

[altavino]

The tall skinny nature of a flex tank makes for a good fermentation vessel for whites
And for my Pinot noir I made a screen with a stainless frame that fits in the dexter top and do a submerged cap ferment .
This I blend with the wide fermenter Pinot before barreling

 

[HillPeople]

I have 30 gal. each of Amarone and Montepulciano going now in 30 gal FlexTanks.
We bought the floating skins for long term maturation.
I'll let you all know early fall what I think of them, but I sure like them so far.
Using French barrel staves in each.

 

[geek]

It looks like you don't have them topped off ?

 

[HillPeople]

It looks like you don't have them topped off ?

They are still actively fermenting.
When that's done we'll rack, put in the skins and inert gas and seal them.

 

[sdelli]

Everyone needs to make their own decisions as to what to use based on their circumstances. Is this right for you, sdelli? That is your choice. Others need to make their own decisions. I have taken the liberty of finding another paper for you researching the permeability and wine qualities and it can be found here: http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/HDPE-oxygen-permeability-Flextank.pdf .

I am not trying to sway anybody decisions in any way at all.... I am just asking this thread to provide the more in depth resources they claim to have on this product. It would help me dramatically in making a decision in the future whether or not to move in this direction. Not just the one provided by the ceo himself. That is the great thing about the forum! It will help everyone collaborate a subject until the best answers have been uncovered.....

 

[GreginND]

I am not trying to sway anybody decisions in any way at all.... I am just asking this thread to provide the more in depth resources they claim to have on this product. It would help me dramatically in making a decision in the future whether or not to move in this direction. Not just the one provided by the ceo himself. That is the great thing about the forum! It will help everyone collaborate a subject until the best answers have been uncovered.....

Well, that's fine. And I think getting personal experience on the use of flextanks from other winemakers is great. But it seems that you discount the science of oxygen permeability without doing the research expecting all of us to convince you. And you are immediately skeptical and reject studies that have been presented because some are done by the company selling the tanks presumably without actually reading the details of the experiments and determining if their methods are valid.

I guess I would suggest that you do a bit of the literature searching yourself and if you question the results, tell us why you doubt the data. Do you think they are fabricated? Do their results conflict with published studies on permeability of HDPE in the literature? Of course independent confirmation of the studies would be ideal. But I would also say that ordinary claims require ordinary evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The studies done by Flextank and their partners are what one would expect based on the properties of HDPE, so I don't see anything extraordinary about their claims.

All that being said, I would caution anyone from making conclusions solely based on organoleptic qualities of the wine in flex tanks. Tastes are often subjective. Hard data (measurements of SO2 levels, measurement of O2 levels) are more convincing.

 

[geek]

They are still actively fermenting.
When that's done we'll rack, put in the skins and inert gas and seal them.

what exactly is floating skins? Are you referring to grape skins pack?
So you plan on putting them after fermentation?

Thanks for the clarification.

.

 

[ibglowin]

LOL, no………..

 

[geek]

uh? New one for me, kind of like a balloon uh?

 

[altavino]

The floating skins give a variable capacity ability they sit on the surface of the wine reducing headspace issues , saturating the headspace with an inert gas gives further protection .

I put the skin on after I've racked the wine off the gross lees and into the tank , innoculate mlb and conduct mlf with the skin in place .

That said , it's still preferred and much lower risk to use the tanks completely full and you really have to watch your so2 levels.

I've got the dexter tanks , hill peoples are the ECO tanks , different lid but cheaper priced than the dexter , both are good . I wanted the bigger opening .

Flex tanks are also great because they are easy to clean , don't plug up like the pores of a barrel and don't dent like a stainless vc tank . I've backed into them with a forklift without issue . Tough gear.

Are they perfect? No . But neither are barrels or vc stainless tanks .
They offer some advantages and are litre for litre , cheaper .
But if you only make a couple carboys worth a year stick with those.

One thing I like is the flexibility , once you buy a barrel you have to keep it full until you scrap it. A flex tank can sit empty one season to the next without issue .
I've got enough barrel capacity to make 1.5 tonnes of grapes into wine . This year I also made some white wine and a winery gave me a great deal on 800 lbs of California grapes that I'd like to use as blender with our local stuff .
Having the two flex tanks means I could go big this year but since I only make white every 2 or 3 years and I'm not making as much red next year those flex tanks can sit idle .
They are also good blending tanks and fermenters , something barrels are not.

Pros and cons . But a great economical tool for the larger scale amateur .
And I'll be long retired from winemaking by the time they wear out.

 

[Runningwolf]

I wish you guys would quit talking about these. It's just a good think I can't buy them local "hopefully they won't be at the Winemakers Magazine convention either). I would really seriously think about buying one. Currently I am using SS beer kegs (15g) that can be picked up for $30 if you hit the right salesperson at the local beer dist. Perfect for wine? Yes! But it does not have the extra bells and whistles you can get with a Flex Tank.

 

[altavino]

http://morewinemaking.com/category/speidel-plastic-tanks-1.html

Seidel tanks are good for smaller volumes but have a similar o2 permeability as the HD ft, I have one 60l
They chew through so2 a faster than a carboy but fine for 8-12 month storage .

They are small too

 

[semenn]

Interesting topic. It's not clear why everyone suddenly decided that a plastic tank should work just like an oak barrel? In my understanding, these are two complementary technological units. I'll tell you my experience.
*I make and use a tank made of polypropylene in winemaking. My tanks have a conical bottom for easy removal from the sediment and a floating cover with a pneumatic seal chamber, which allows the use of a smaller volume without the risk of oxidation. These tanks I use in the initial stage of winemaking. The main advantage is the use during fermentation and maturation, as well as the possibility of easy removal from the sediment and cleaning from the fallen stone. I use a polypropylene tank from autumn to early spring, after which I pour the wine into glass bottles or into an oak barrel for further maturation.

 

[ibglowin]

This is a really old thread you have replied to. I actually have 2 of the 15G Flextanks now. They do allow micro-oxidation at about the same rate as a barrel of the equivalent size. They provide everything except for concentration through evaporation (Angels Share) Nice thing about these is that unlike a barrel you can use them one year and then rinse them out and store them for however long it is until you need them again.

Try that with a barrel.

 

[semenn]

In addition to micro-oxidation, the oak barrel adds tannins to the wine. These are slightly different processes. The more urgent purpose of the plastic container is to work at the initial stage. The aging process is best left to the oak barrel and the glass bottle.

 

[ibglowin]

Tannins can be added from a bottle or from oak adjuncts. I own 4 barrels myself but I find the Flextank to fill an important need in my winery.

In addition to micro-oxidation, the oak barrel adds tannins to the wine. These are slightly different processes. The more urgent purpose of the plastic container is to work at the initial stage. The aging process is best left to the oak barrel and the glass bottle.