WineXpert Fwk verse winexpert

[bstnh1]

I'm glad you listen, doesn't matter to me at all. I never look at those labels and think they are a waste of money and time. Some folks think they provide something.

People with health or nutrition concerns read those labels very carefully. People on sodium restricted diets read then to determine how much sodium is on a product. People with allergies rely on those labels to avoid serious illness or death.. People with cholesterol issues read them to determine fat and saturated fat content. People with weight issues look at them to determine the caloric content of a product. Vegetarians and vegans read the labels to see if the product is suitable for their diets. According to a study published in Forbes, 72% of those folks watching their weight read the food labels and 42% of those not watching their weight read those labels frequently or "almost always". It's not simply that some folks "think" the labels provide "something". Those labels provide a lot of actual health and safety related information that a lot of people rely on every day for various reasons.

 

[joeswine]

Getting the government involved always helps. History has shown us this many times over.

Or not !

 

[Swedeman]

We had a meeting today on this subject, and we decided the criticisms and concerns voiced here were very constructive. Thanks for the advice and for the view point of the winemaker. We will update our instructions to list everything in every add pack, update packet labels with more info, add a UPC barcode, nutritional information and, note allergens. All of this makes sense from the maker's perspective. We strongly agree with holding true with transparency and we appreciate your loyalty and feedback. It is much appreciated.
Matteo

Respect! Good call Matteo!

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

Btw, if we all want to help Matteo succeed and become the industry leader in the wine kit arena, best thing we can do is continue to spread the brand awareness by encouraging all our friends to try their products and advising people where they can get them and sharing our positive experiences and love for the product. I have a few friends that make wine but are not on this forum, nor do they visit LP website (they only buy kits from the local HBS store). But after sharing my findings and telling them about the product, they have all bought FWK products now and I think they are “sold” on the quality and I don’t see them going back .

 

[Bmd2k1]

Btw, if we all want to help Matteo succeed and become the industry leader in the wine kit arena, best thing we can do is continue to spread the brand awareness by encouraging all our friends to try their products and advising people where they can get them and sharing our positive experiences and love for the product. I have a few friends that make wine but are not on this forum, nor do they visit LP website (they only buy kits from the local HBS store). But after sharing my findings and telling them about the product, they have all bought FWK products now and I think they are “sold” on the quality and I don’t see them going back .

In that light....lets encourage peeps to write favorable reviews on the Label Peelers website. I personally have relied on those when purchasing kits.

Cheers!

 

[Handy Turnip]

Btw, if we all want to help Matteo succeed and become the industry leader in the wine kit arena...

Love this to happen, as it might mean that they make it over to the UK and Europe and then we can have a try! Unfortunately until that point I'll have to stick with Winexpert (who do me proud to be fair with excellent wine! And thankfully I've never experienced any "kit taste")

 

[Swedeman]

Love this to happen, as it might mean that they make it over to the UK and Europe and then we can have a try! Unfortunately until that point I'll have to stick with Winexpert (who do me proud to be fair with excellent wine! And thankfully I've never experienced any "kit taste")

I agree with you on all points you made.

 

[joeswine]

Love this to happen, as it might mean that they make it over to the UK and Europe and then we can have a try! Unfortunately until that point I'll have to stick with Winexpert (who do me proud to be fair with excellent wine! And thankfully I've never experienced any "kit taste")

Never have I

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

I only notice the Kit taste in red wines, not the whites

 

[sour_grapes]

I only notice the Kit taste in red wines, not the whites

Same here.

 

[joeswine]

I only notice the Kit taste in red wines, not the whites

 

[Swedeman]

I only notice the Kit taste in red wines, not the whites

Same here.

Interesting! One could expect both white and red wines to be heat treated equally, so why reds but not whites? Hmm....

Question, have anybody who is sensitive to kit taste, noticed that in WE's re-formulated kits? Or is that for pre re-formulation only?

 

[bstnh1]

For several years now, thermovinification, which involves heating grapes to the boiling point before fermentation, has been used by wine makers around the world. Supposedly, it increases color and tannin extraction. Makes me wonder why, if heat is the culprit, no one ever complains about "kit taste" in commercial wines.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

It puzzles me how so many experience kit taste and some do not.. for me, the best way I can describe it is that it’s tastes like a chemical or faint plastic…it makes every red taste the same to me. I have put cabs and merlots side by side and could not taste the difference due to the kit flavor overpowering them. I only buy premium kits, so I have to say I have no experience with the lower end kits. But again, it’s amazing that to some people it’s clearly present, but not to others. There must be a chemical compound involved that some are sensitive to and others are not? It’s a mystery

 

[winemaker81]

Interesting! One could expect both white and red wines to be heat treated equally, so why reds but not whites? Hmm....

White and red concentrates are produced using different processes, as whites don't need the color and tannin extraction.

For several years now, thermovinification, which involves heating grapes to the boiling point before fermentation, has been used by wine makers around the world. Supposedly, it increases color and tannin extraction. Makes me wonder why, if heat is the culprit, no one ever complains about "kit taste" in commercial wines.

Is this process used to create concentrate? If not, that's the difference. Also, it's possible that the process used to make shelf-stable concentrate is different from the one used by commercial wineries, which will account for a different taste.

Question, have anybody who is sensitive to kit taste, noticed that in WE's re-formulated kits? Or is that for pre re-formulation only?

I've made 2 WE kits -- Reserve Australian Cabernet Sauvignon and Reserve Australian Chardonnay. Neither had kit taste (not that I expected it in the Chardonnay), and both were surprisingly good at bottling time, which was the 7 month point.

 

[Swedeman]

White and red concentrates are produced using different processes, as whites don't need the color and tannin extraction.

I was thinking of the heat treatment needed to make the kit bags shelf stable not the process before that step. I really can't see why the time-temperature needed would differs between red and white must. So my question is still, given that, at least on the forum, that the pasteurization of certain vendors kits is the reason for the kit taste; Why only kit taste in red kits?

Also, it's possible that the process used to make shelf-stable concentrate is different from the one used by commercial wineries, which will account for a different taste.

A quote from Tim Vandergrift:
"If you read between the lines, an awful lot of commercial wine is made exactly like wine kits, with the same raw materials, and the same techniques. That's why I find it consistently funny when anyone says they don't like 'kit' wine—they're usually already drinking it, but paying way more from a commercial source!"

Full text here: Wine Skins in Recipe Kits

He makes a comment about origin claims in the same text:
"Declaring regional content on a wine kit brings it under the purview of federal labeling oversight. When we say California, Italy or Chile, we follow the exact same rules that wineries use to define regionality and appellation of origin, and we have to keep and store records of the content of the kits and provide them if requested."

 

[winemaker81]

So my question is still, given that, at least on the forum, that the pasteurization of certain vendors kits is the reason for the kit taste; Why only kit taste in red kits?

Assuming the pasteurization is the cause of KWT, and if the red and white kits are pasteurized using the same process, one difference is that red and white concentrate are not the same substance. They are produced by very different processes, and it appears (to me) that the heavy constituents in red grape concentrate react poorly to the heat. Without details from WE and the other major kit vendors, I don't expect we'll find a better answer.

An avid reader of Sherlock Holmes as a teenager, the line "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." has been part of my problem solving process since then. Applying that premise to this problem, I find that I cannot eliminate enough things to form a reasonable conclusion.

FWK's process, which does not include Pasteurization and is not shelf stable, eliminates KWT. However, we know of at least 2 other processes: WE's old process and their new one, both of which are shelf stable. The old one can produce KWT, and supposedly the new one doesn't (my limited experience is no KWT).

Unless WE's new process doesn't include pasteurization, we cannot form a conclusion regarding the effects of Pasteurization. I'd like an answer to this, but the facts available to us do not support one.

A quote from Tim Vandergrift:
"If you read between the lines, an awful lot of commercial wine is made exactly like wine kits, with the same raw materials, and the same techniques. That's why I find it consistently funny when anyone says they don't like 'kit' wine—they're usually already drinking it, but paying way more from a commercial source!"

I checked the sites of several concentrate vendors. They pasteurize their concentrate, but recommend refrigeration at 40 F. Since most kits are shelf stable, I suspect a different process is used. There is a huge difference between shelf stable and not, so it appears that Vandergrift's statement is not 100% correct, as there is a difference in the concentrate.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

While I totally respect Tom V, I believe he is employed by a kit wine company or at least compensated, so perhaps there is a bit of bias?

 

[joeswine]

It puzzles me how so many experience kit taste and some do not.. for me, the best way I can describe it is that it’s tastes like a chemical or faint plastic…it makes every red taste the same to me. I have put cabs and merlots side by side and could not taste the difference due to the kit flavor overpowering them. I only buy premium kits, so I have to say I have no experience with the lower end kits. But again, it’s amazing that to some people it’s clearly present, but not to others. There must be a chemical compound involved that some are sensitive to and others are not? It’s a mystery

Then there’s something wrong in the structure and what price kits are you referring to?

 

[Swedeman]

But again, it’s amazing that to some people it’s clearly present, but not to others. There must be a chemical compound involved that some are sensitive to and others are not? It’s a mystery

Well. there are some examples of this, like skatole/androstenone in pork products derived from non-castrated male pigs. Most females are sensitive to this boar taint. Males are less sensitive to this. Another example is the unpleasant odor from the urine of people who have eaten asparagus. Some people claims they can't smell anything unusual in “asparagus urine”.