How long to Age wine.

[Handy Andy]

I was once told by a African wine making expert, that ALL wines are deteriorating after 5 years, and if I was to buy a 100 year old bottle at some fancy wine auction, I would likely be buying a bottle of wine vinagre.

Is there an optimum time for aging wine?

How soon can a wine be drank, after racking is finished?

What types of improvements can I expect between using old and new oak barrels? (I steamed my old barrels clean, they now smell nice)

Does Aging in Plastic, Glass, Inox or Oak have significant pros and cons?

How can I ensure my wine does not deteriorate in the barrel???????????????

 

[crushday]

I was once told by a African wine making expert, that ALL wines are deteriorating after 5 years, and if I was to buy a 100 year old bottle at some fancy wine auction, I would likely be buying a bottle of wine vinagre.

Is there an optimum time for aging wine?

How soon can a wine be drank, after racking is finished?

What types of improvements can I expect between using old and new oak barrels? (I steamed my old barrels clean, they now smell nice)

Does Aging in Plastic, Glass, Inox or Oak have significant pros and cons?

How can I ensure my wine does not deteriorate in the barrel???????????????

Lots of discussion topics in your post...

I'll give some mild pushback on the "deteriorating after 5 years" information you received from your African wine making expert. I have had many older wines that have been stupendous. Most recently, I had a 2004 Pinot Noir that was amazing. I wish I had another bottle. There wasn't anything special about the cork but the wine was cellared at 58 degrees for years. Which is an important aspect that helps answer some of your questions.

Each variety has its own optimal drinking/aging timelines. Some reds are early drinkers that age well. Some age well and can be drank early. It's all what you, the purveyor, wants. How the wine is stored makes a huge difference. I had wine with a friend recently who pulled a bottle from the cupboard above their counter. I asked how long it had been there and they couldn't remember. I didn't give the wine much chance to convince me it wasn't bad. And, it was bad. I knew it intuitively but it was confirmed as he decanted it. It was off color and tasted....terrible. How you store wine makes all the difference.

I'm assuming "old" barrels are neutral and don't impart any oak to the wine. An adjunct needs to be used if you have any desire for oak in an old barrel. Most of us use winestix or spirals, at various toast levels depending on your style. New barrels impart a lot of oak quickly and that often needs to be considered. Although oak dissipates overtime, at first it can seem like you've been teleported back to high school shop class. Be careful...

Tell me more about your recently steamed barrel. I've had a bad experience recently...

I haven't posted about it yet, but I recently completed an experiment with topping up barrels verses not topping. I can tell you from experience that topping up and adding the right amount of K-meta is necessary so your wine doesn't deteriorate in the barrel. Top up at least once per month. Add 1/4 tsp of kmeta every three months as a matter of practice or when necessary if you can test SO2 levels.

Enough for now. Got to get back to work.

 

[Johnd]

So many questions and so many different answers to each. I'll take a shot:

Is there an optimum time for aging wine? Yes, there is, and it varies from wine to wine, based upon a number of factors like acidity, tannin content, varietal, body, and style of wine. In general, wines go through chemical changes their entire lives, starting off rough around the edges, improving, hitting their peak, declining, and finally tasting badly when they get too old. White wines go through this cycle more quickly than reds, reds can last a lot longer. In terms of years, dry whites (not Sauternes or the like) last under 10 years, with the majority peaking in under 5. Reds (excluding ports and the like) can last upwards of 50 years, though most peak in well under 10.

How soon can a wine be drank, after racking is finished? You can drink your wine whenever you like, many taste all of the way through the process, so it's safe to consume at any time. You'll generally find an improvement as the wine clears and becomes more refined, it can be disjointed when young. Some wines, like Nouveau Beaujolais, are made to be drank soon after bottling and aren't very good a couple years later.

What types of improvements can I expect between using old and new oak barrels? (I steamed my old barrels clean, they now smell nice) Barrels will allow your wine to age gracefully through micro-oxidation and concentration, both in new and old barrels. You won't get any of the oaky characteristic taste from old barrels.

Does Aging in Plastic, Glass, Inox or Oak have significant pros and cons? Yes, and they are all very debatable, but I'll try to share some pros and cons. We've already covered the aging characteristics from using oak above. You can age wine in glass or plastic, plastic will potentially give you some micro oxygenation that you won't get from glass, depending upon what type of plastic you select. Flex Tanks and the like have different thicknesses and prescribed oxygenation characteristics, plastic water carboys may cause oxidation if used too long. Aging in glass won't affect the wine much, other than allowing the normal chemical changes to take place, the changes occur more effectively in the presence of micro oxygenation that barrels and good plastic tanks provide.

How can I ensure my wine does not deteriorate in the barrel??????????????? Adopt a proper sulfite protocol, test your wine as prescribed, and keep up with the sulfite additions as needed. keep your barrels topped up on a regular basis. Taste the wine occasionally to ensure that you don't get any more oak than you would like to have.

Every one of these topics could be the topic of a dissertation, I've just tried to hit the highlights and a few of the finer points.......................

 

[crushday]

Nice response, @Johnd !!

 

[Handy Andy]

Tell me more about your recently steamed barrel. I've had a bad experience recently...

I haven't posted about it yet, but I recently completed an experiment with topping up barrels verses not topping. I can tell you from experience that topping up and adding the right amount of K-meta is necessary so your wine doesn't deteriorate in the barrel. Top up at least once per month. Add 1/4 tsp of kmeta every three months as a matter of practice or when necessary if you can test SO2 levels.

I have recently purchased a new house complete with woodland, orchards, and vineyards. The barrels and old wine making equipment were part of the deal. When I pulled the cork on one of the wooden barrels, it smelt of stale wine. So I tried filling and cleaning with various chemicals sold locally. Vasilox removed lots of muck, but there was always more muck on the next wash. The barrels also leaked due to having dried out a bit too much. The leaking stopped after a few hours. I posted some questions on this forum ref cleaning barrels, and it was suggested I try steaming the barrels. This I eventually did after exhausting all my other options, my 60 gallon barrel stopped passing dirty water after about 20 minutes of steaming. My 30 gallon barrel took a lot longer ie an hour before dirt and WAX stopped coming out. I assumed that maybe the wax was used as a sealant, so refilled with water to see if it had sprung a leak, it hasnt, and is currently sitting full of water with k-meta in it. I burned a sulphur pill in my bigger barrel after it had mostly dried out and re-corked it. I am thinking these two barrels might cause me a lot of problems, if I dont get them right.

Last year when I was viewing the property, the old fella I bought it from gave me a sample of his new red wine from a 300 litre stainless fermentation barrel, and it tasted really nice. He then gave me a sample from his 60 gallon oak barrel, which was from the previous year and it was hardly drinkable, very acid.

When I eventually managed to move into my new house this year, the old guy had left 70 litres of his wine for me, in g litre containers. His white wine in glass 5 litre jars was very good, his red wine stored in 5 litre plastic bottles was awful along with some rose.

What was the bad experience steaming barrels???

 

[crushday]

What was the bad experience steaming barrels???

Congratulations on what sounds like an amazing property! In short, the barrels should be made into furniture.

About 18 months ago I purchased two used 15 gallon barrels. They both had one run of Rye whiskey aged for 2 years in them. They are American Oak with a medium "char". When they arrived I cleaned them and prepped for filling. I wanted to fill them with a Cab in one and a Cab/Zin blend in the other.

During the year long aging, I noticed the Cab taking on a unsavory flavor profile while the Cab/Zin developed nicely and is now a very good bottled whiskey barrel aged wine. I love it.

The cab however, not so much, even though the Cab is from the same wine as Cab/Zin blend. As the months stacked up so did my taste for "moss and forest floor". By the end it was hardly drinkable.

Before I filled that barrel again I steam cleaned it and filled it with a 100% zinfandel. It wasn't until I started tasting moss and forest floor again that I realized I had a problem in that barrel. So, essentially, I have 30 gallons of wine spanning two years that I have ruined because of a used barrel.

That is my fear for you.

I have an Italian made steamer that produces steam at 87 pounds pressure and 312 degrees. I steam those 15 gallon barrels for a minimum of 15 minutes as I want that heat to penetrate into the wood. After that much time the barrels are warm and the metal bands are hot.

What steamer are you using?

 

[Handy Andy]

Congratulations on what sounds like an amazing property! In short, the barrels should be made into furniture.

About 18 months ago I purchased two used 15 gallon barrels. They both had one run of Rye whiskey aged for 2 years in them. They are American Oak with a medium "char". When they arrived I cleaned them and prepped for filling. I wanted to fill them with a Cab in one and a Cab/Zin blend in the other.

During the year long aging, I noticed the Cab taking on a unsavory flavor profile while the Cab/Zin developed nicely and is now a very good bottled whiskey barrel aged wine. I love it.

The cab however, not so much, even though the Cab is from the same wine as Cab/Zin blend. As the months stacked up so did my taste for "moss and forest floor". By the end it was hardly drinkable.

Before I filled that barrel again I steam cleaned it and filled it with a 100% zinfandel. It wasn't until I started tasting moss and forest floor again that I realized I had a problem in that barrel. So, essentially, I have 30 gallons of wine spanning two years that I have ruined because of a used barrel.

That is my fear for you.

I have an Italian made steamer that produces steam at 87 pounds pressure and 312 degrees. I steam those 15 gallon barrels for a minimum of 15 minutes as I want that heat to penetrate into the wood. After that much time the barrels are warm and the metal bands are hot.

What steamer are you using?

This year is a learning year for me. I hope not to make too many mistakes! Last year apparently the vineyards produced 750 litres. This year this is not going to happen as a didnt treat the downy mildew fast enough in my biggest vineyard so lost a lot of the crop. That was mistake number 1. The barrels are likely going to be mistake number 2 if I use them.

I improvised and used the output from an Alembique still, full of water without the no cooling attached. The barrels were very warm when I finished including the steel bands.

The wooden barrels have had me concerned since I opened them up, and smelled the insides. I think you are right, I will use the barrels as garden bar room furniture, there is too much risk involved, and being old they are not going to impart any good flavours to the wine it seems.

This year I have plenty stainless and plastic barrels I can rack and age my wine in. These I was going to use for primary fermentation, I am assuming there is no problem using them to age the wine in also, or should I bottle it all after finishing racking.

I noted in a local store they now have brand new wooden barrels for sale. I might buy one or two to compare the wine aged on wood compared to that aged in plastic and metal barrels. Also a smaller barrel might be more manageable when full, than my 60 gallon (drinks table) barrel.

There are no whisky manufacturers on these islands selling used barrels. What is your opinion of brand new wooden barrels and wine?

 

[Johnd]

Here’s a real time thread happening now on WMT: PET vs Glass - primary, secondary and aging

If you use the search function, you’ll find many things you’re looking for, or scan the appropriate forum. Very few things haven’t been debated / discussed ad nauseum. For instance, if you have a barrel question, go to the Barrels & Oaking forum, scan the thread titles to find what you’re looking for, and presto!! Like magic.

 

[Rocky]

As stated above by other responders, there are many factors involved, some one can control and some one cannot. Environmental factors that can be controlled are temperature, humidity, vibration and exposure to UV light. Maintaining a stable temperature at or near 55 degrees F, a relative humidity at or near 75% and protecting the wine from UV light and excessive vibration will give one a greater chance of longer and successful aging.

 

[winemaker81]

I've read in a few places that 90% of the world's wine production is intended to be consumed within 3 years of making. It's possible that type of statistic influenced the wine expert's statement, but as others have noted, that statement is flat wrong.

Wines I've made were still going strong after 7 to 10 years, and members of this forum can talk about their wines lasting longer. I've had 25 yo Bordeaux and 30 yo port that were amazing.

 

[Handy Andy]

I've read in a few places that 90% of the world's wine production is intended to be consumed within 3 years of making. It's possible that type of statistic influenced the wine expert's statement, but as others have noted, that statement is flat wrong.

Wines I've made were still going strong after 7 to 10 years, and members of this forum can talk about their wines lasting longer. I've had 25 yo Bordeaux and 30 yo port that were amazing.

What is the main reasons for some wines lasting a long time and others not?

Is it the use of higher levels of Potassium Metabisulphate or something else? Potassium sorbate perhaps?

I was having dinner with a medical doctor last week, who thinks he knows something about everything. He informed me in his opinion that the more expensive wines that last the longest have more sulphates in them, and cause him headaches. He also argued that Potassium metabisulphate can cause heart arrhythmia and potassium is used as a lethal injection. He argued against using sulphates. He prefers wines that dont have sulphates added, and hence are intended to be drank soon after they are made.

The locals here in the Azores dont add sulphates or yeasts to their wines. I have added sulphates and yeast and nutrients in the hope of producing stable wines with what I consider to be a good flavor. Will any one notice the difference?

How important is temperature control ?

 

[Rice_Guy]

“What is the main reason some wines last”
* wine is chemically a reduced mixture, , ie if we mix wine with oxygen (air) the two will react making something else. One main reaction is that the 11% ethyl alcohol reacts making acetaldehyde which gives a burn reaction in the back of the throat. Flavors are at lower levels but when they go the freshness or fruityness is gone.
* wine is a preservation system. As a system there are several components. ,, The package, glass or stainless or oak or plastic is part of the system. Each container has a defined rate at which oxidation occurs and for that look into oxygen transmission rate. ,, Aeration as in racking is part of the system, when you add fresh oxygen it will react. ,, Metabisulphite is a reduced compound which has the neat trait that it has a stronger tendency to pull electrons out of oxygen than alcohol, (also it is approved in foods) ,, Temperature is part of the system, reactions that are ready to happen double the rate for every 10C increase in temp. ,, Light is part of the system, light donates photons which increase the energy level of the the mixture. ,, Tannin is reactive so we extract it from grape skins of red grapes. . . . and pH and TA and fermentation temp and time and on and on.
Basically any time there are more than three variables its like forecasting the weather, we know key control points like SO2 but oxidation will eventually happen (look into the concept increase in entropy)
* wine is a food system, some defects taste good at low levels, therefore the acceptability increases for a while and then as levels continue the yuck factor starts. It will also change depending on what was eaten before (ie eat crackers to wash out the mouth or eat meat to bind tannins and with bitter like dill or chemical like TCA just wait it out)
* wine is a set of expectations, and good will change if friends are there

“what is the reason wine lasts” wow! ! are you going for a pHd? that’s a hard one and the answer will be different for whites and reds and fruits

 

[winemaker81]

What is the main reasons for some wines lasting a long time and others not?

One correction -- sulfites are used in wine, not sulfates. These are totally different compounds.

Four main longevity factors are tannin, acid, alcohol, and sugar. To a great extent, wines with higher levels of these 4 constituents have a greater likelihood of aging well. Several sources say these constituents must be "balanced", although there is no real definition for that term. The best example is Bordeaux reds -- the highest quality ones, the ones that taste "the best" (depending on your POV), typically have the best aging ability. These wines are "balanced". [yeah, I know that doesn't explain anything.]

To achieve good levels, the best fruit is required. This is produced by a mixture of grape variety, soil, climate, annual weather, other growing conditions, and care. Weather is not controllable so grape growers address the factors they can, and there is probably as much prayer in the vineyard as there is in the classroom just before an important test.

The wine making conditions, including yeast, hygiene, and other care affect the final result.

Lastly? Storage? The wine has to be stored in good containers, corks need to be high quality, and the storage area needs to have a stable temperature (preferably < 65 F). I've also read that larger containers survive longer.

Wikipedia has a page on wine aging. Nope, I don't trust anything on Wikipedia for accuracy, but it's a good place to start. According to the page, 90% of the world's wine is intended for consumption within 1 year, and 99% within 5 years. Other sources state that 90% of wine is intended for consumption within 3 years. Either figure is probably fairly accurate.

Potassium metabisulfite helps with aging, as it is an antioxidant and general preservative.

 

[winemaker81]

The locals here in the Azores dont add sulphates or yeasts to their wines. I have added sulphates and yeast and nutrients in the hope of producing stable wines with what I consider to be a good flavor. Will any one notice the difference?

Yeast grows on the grape skin, so grapes will naturally ferment on their own. A lot of old wineries do not add yeast as the yeast that grows in their vineyard produces the result they want. One article stated that old wineries have the yeast from decades of winemaking all through the building, so even if another yeast was introduced, the high levels of the native yeast would stamp them out. This makes sense.

So ... if you like the wine others are producing from the vineyard(s) you will buy from, then you can skip adding a commercial yeast. Or you can add commercial yeast to ensure a result. [I don't know anything about the yeast that grows in the vineyards I buy from, so I inoculate.]

According to the US FDA, 1 in 100 people is sensitive to sulfite. I've met a few people who could smell low levels of sulfite that no one else could, but it's a small number that makes me doubt the FDA figure. Based upon my experience very few, if any, will notice the sulfite.

What grapes are you using and how long do you intend to age the wine? If you're drinking it up within 2 years, you can skip the sulfite. [I use sulfite, but it's your wine and your opinion is the only one that counts.]

The Wikipedia page I referenced has a couple of tables from Jancis Robinson regarding aging potential. I agree with most of it, but some of her items are patently wrong, such as kit wines. Good quality, well made kit wines have a good aging potential. Sure, they're not going to last 25 years, but since I'm not waiting 25 years to drink the wine, that's not important.

 

[bstnh1]

I find that the biggest reason some wines don't last very long is that winos slosh the stuff down before it has a chance to get old!