Making Wine like a winery....

[ibglowin]

Great input, thank you!

 

[AlFulchino]

ditto !!!

 

[Midwest Vintner]

Adding a very small amount of sugar to tweak the balance of a wine would not likely have any negative impact and may improve it, however if you need to add enough sugar to make a dry wine sweet or off-dry that is a pretty major addition. I find wines made this way tend to lack the depth of flavour and intensity of wines produced by retaining natural residual sugar and the balance is often awkward... an off-dry Riesling with 12% alc. just doesn't seem as well balanced as one with 10% alc. and naturally occurring residual sugar. Also, I've never heard of any winemakers who have had any more significant problems with H2S in wines produced this way than in their regular ferments.

In addition, you're not really killing the yeast through this method, just dropping the temperature enough to make fermentation stop and then removing the yeast through racking/filtration.

Also, do you not think that filtering to .45 micron does any harm to the wine?

I don't see any viable alternative for commercial wineries for sweet wines. Sorbate can cause off-aromas/flavours and as such is not an option for premium wines. And since most aromatic compounds and colloids which may impact mouthfeel are smaller than .45 microns in white wines (some large phenolic complexes in reds may be large enough to be disturbed by filtration) I don't see any high chance of quality loss by sterile filtration provided it is performed carefully. Also, you don't need to use sterile filtration for the initial clarification. Yeast cells are usually about 1 micron in size and so a coarse filtration followed by about .65 to 1 micron will effectively remove enough of the yeast cells to inhibit fermentation provided the wine is kept cool. Sterile filtration would be needed immediately prior to bottling.

I don't think that making wines through this process is inherently more suited to large producers. It is much easier to chill down a small volume of wine quickly than a large one. Most premium producers here have cooling jackets with glycol systems, immersible chilling plates or small heat exchangers. Sure, most of these tools are expensive, but if a winery wants to produce premium wine they are worth the money. I'm sure there are budget methods for achieving the same ends, also... winemakers are generally masters of innovation when they need to be.

If you are dropping temps in a fermenting wine, you do risk straining the wine and possible H2S. Now, I'm not sure how fast the glycol systems work, but like you said, larger quantity tanks will be harder to change temperatures in, which may be an issue. Trying to filter twice with those sized filters doesn't ensure success, but the cool temperatures might. Problem being, knowing how fast the chill works on bringing down temps and then at what point it stops fermenting. I agree about sorbate causing off flavors, but they do temper with age and are very minimal in a full bodied wine.

A 2% change in alcohol will change almost any wine. I have not tasted, side by side, the same wine with only residual sugar and back-sweetened for wine with the same alcohol content and yeast. As you stated, there was about a 2% difference, which is about what I have also experienced (using a lalvin yeast vs a red star yeast). We have made wine with residual sugar and back sweetened the same type of wine using those yeasts. We actually preferred the back sweetened wine in that comparison, but it was minimal sweetening and the yeasts were different. We like to play with our yeast

 

[agdodge4x4]

OK, so what would the procedure be if I wanted to put all my sugar in at the beginning and get it to a semi sweet wine in the end without backsweetening?

I can only think of two ways to do it:

1.) Figure out how much sugar I like in my finished wine, and add that in addition to whatever it takes to make it finish at 11-12%. This would require monitoring SG daily, maybe even twice a day until it got where I wanted it, then sorbating it, right?

2.) Figure out how much sugar I like in my finished wine, get a yeast that can tolerate somewhere close to my finished wine alcohol percent (say Montrachet is I can handle 13%) and then make that calculation and let it run until the yeast kills itself.


Right? I have the standard procedure down, this is mostly for my education, experimentation, etc. Im wanting to try this because I feel like the less 'messing around' with my wine, the less its exposed to oxygen and the better off it will be. If this works, then its one less time my wine is exposed before bottling.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Anything that has residual sugar from any source is sterile filtered in a commercial setting prior to bottling. Another method while technically back sweetening in its approach is a Reserve Method. Some unfermented juice is reserved at Crush for Reds and Pressing for Whites and then added to the dry wine to increase the desired sweetness. This has not only the effect of adding sugar but to also add and increase nose and flavors to the wine. By the way if you plan on stopping early, you cannot use published alcohol tolerances for yeast as a guide. Many will go far beyond the published capability. If you want to stop the ferment, the easiest is for a Amateur winemaker is to arrive at the desired brix level remove the wine off the lees, chill below 40, sorbate, fine, and filter in that order.
Malvina

 

[tatud4life]

Is it possible for a winery to stop a fermentation, yes. I have high doubts if many of them do it. The risks are high. I also don't believe everything they tell the public. They all have their secrets and thats business.

I agree. My wife and I took a tour of Sugarland Cellars in Gatlinburg, TN and we saw their fermentation tanks. (Actually, you don't have to take the tour to see them. They are in their showroom for all to see.) their tanks are water jacketed and they do stop the fermentation process by chilling the wine and they run the wine through a filter. Some of their wines are really sweet. Plus, they are very helpful and informative. I'm sure though that they do not divulge all their secrets.

 

[hvac36]

Found this on the subject thanks Wine Maker Mag....


How do you sterile filter your wine?
IssueOct/Nov 2004

Dear Wine Wizard, I have a 2003 Chardonnay aging in my garage. I have about 65 gallons, which I initially fermented at about 40 degrees F (4 degrees C) for four months and then moved to oak. The wine fermented slowly and is now at 1% residual sugar and has completed malolactic fermentation. It is a very fruity, semi-sweet wine that is no longer fermenting. Rather than attempting to restart fermentation, I am inclined to bottle it as is. I don't want to mess it up trying to get rid of the residual sugar. I have just purchased a filter system. The finest filter pads that it has are 0.5 micron nominal. I understand this to mean that it will stop half of the 0.5 micron particles. Is this fine enough for sterile filtration so that I can bottle this wine without worry of fermentation starting in the bottle? And do you think I should even put my wine through a sterile filtration?Mike Johnston Watsonville, CaliforniaWine Wizard replies: The short answer to your question is: 0.45 micron nominal filter pads are the industry standard for "sterile" filtration. These pads prevent all yeast and bacteria from getting through. So, if you want to be as certain as possible, it's best to filter with a 0.45 micron nominal pad. This will ensure that you take out the maximum amount of unwanted material. The 0.5 micron filter sheet is a little bit "looser" than the 0.45 micron sheet and would most likely allow some microbes to pass through. If I was a winery with 50,000 gallons of 1% RS (residual sugar) Chardonnay that I wanted to bottle and put into the market, I would certainly make sure to final-filter with the tightest pads possible. Ruining thousands of customers' opinions about your products due to one little yeast cell is a scary prospect. However, as you might imagine, I've got a longer answer for you and you can choose what option best suits you. You're a home winemaker with only 65 gallons of the 1% RS Chardonnay, not 50,000 gallons. I should explain a little bit about filter and filtration jargon for those of us that might not be familiar with words like "0.45 micron nominal filter." Pad filters are stacks of cellulose sheets that get mounted in a stainless steel or metal frame. Wine or juice is forced by a pump or by air pressure through the cellulose pads and depending upon the "tightness" of the cellulose matrix and the back pressure on the system, a varying degree of particles will pass through. When we say "nominal" and list a measurement like "0.45 micron" we are talking about the size of a filter pad. This pad is designed to prevent particles larger than the specified size (e.g. 0.45 micron) to pass through. Not all filters available to home winemakers offer a true 0.45 micron nominal filter pad. Many only go as small as 0.5 micron nominal which is not truly a "sterile" filter. It is very close, but no cigar (as the saying goes). Bacteria, especially, because they are so much smaller than yeast cells, could get through filters with this porosity. Once they're in, they can start munching on the sugar left in your wine and cause re-fermentation in the bottle. This is exactly what you're trying to avoid. However - you might be willing to take the risk because in your case, I actually think that the 0.5 micron filter would cut out enough microbial life to render you a relatively stable product. If you are very careful in your sanitation, filtering and bottling processes, I'd say it's an acceptable risk. Your wine fermented slowly, went through malolactic fermentation and is not fermenting now - so it's pretty stable (microbially speaking). It's also a white wine, which means that you probably would be consuming it within a year or two. Most importantly - you love the wine the way it is and don't want to conduct a re-fermentation to decrease the residual sugar to a more stable level.For more of the Wine Wizard's wisdom, pick up the latest issue of WineMaker magazine now available at better home winemaking retailers and newsstand locations.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Excuse me for being skeptical but 40 degrees is a bit too cold to do any fermenting and MLF is impossible at that temperature. Yet it is stated to be completed. MLF certainly not under 6o degrees. As far as filter material porosity you can buy a cartridge filter at 2.5 microns. Does this solve the problem? Not really. While you are on the safe side a true sterile BOTTLING LINE is the real issue not just the filtering. Think of all that Blush Zinfandel in a wine store, ever see any one of them re-fermenting? It is not just about the filtering but the entire bottling procedure that is next to impossible to recreate in an Amateur setting.

 

[saramc]

Commercial bottling lines vary from shop to shop. It it is quite difficult to maintain a true "sterile" environment when bottling wine, as an amateur (and I would bet my bottom dollar that unless you are a multi-million dollar commercial shop, you don't have a true "sterile" bottling setup). And by sterile, I am talking aseptic, no organisms, even your hands are sterile (thinking hospital). The definition of sterile bottling is simply not what people think. Some commercial shops have big buck "enclosed" bottling lines, but others have gravity fillers with 3-6-12,etc spouts...relying upon the cleanliness and sanitizing up to the staff (just like us at home). When I hear sometime talking about sterile bottling, they are usually talking about the filtering process. Just my experience.

 

[Runningwolf]

Saramac, I agree with you. There is a big difference between sterile filtering and a sterile bottling line. I believe this thread started out as talking about sterile filtering which most wineries do. Most wineries all sanitize everything throughout the process also, but sterilizing everything in not done or necessary where alcohol is involved. It is imparitive that everything is perfectly cleaned and then sanitized.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Commercial bottling lines vary from shop to shop. It it is quite difficult to maintain a true "sterile" environment when bottling wine, as an amateur (and I would bet my bottom dollar that unless you are a multi-million dollar commercial shop, you don't have a true "sterile" bottling setup). And by sterile, I am talking aseptic, no organisms, even your hands are sterile (thinking hospital). The definition of sterile bottling is simply not what people think. Some commercial shops have big buck "enclosed" bottling lines, but others have gravity fillers with 3-6-12,etc spouts...relying upon the cleanliness and sanitizing up to the staff (just like us at home). When I hear sometime talking about sterile bottling, they are usually talking about the filtering process. Just my experience.

Yes what you say is true that is why Amateurs must take careful steps of sanitation, proper storage temperatures and the use of the proper amount of sorbate to be avoid issues. The presence of 12-14 percent alcohol is not going to protect the wine from organisms.

 

[jswordy]

We left far behind in this discussion the prospect of yeast designed to help the process by promptly expiring at certain alcohol levels. Many of the wines I see are 9 or 10% abv, quite low compared to a homemade wine which runs 12% and above. When you factor in stainless tanks that allow lees to be quickly drawn out of valves at the bottom (as opposed to drawing wine off the top of the lees), the potential sulphur problem can be well managed, I would think.

I have home winemaker friends who use chest freezers to chill the wine and promote flocculation and settling of lees. I can't see why large wineries wouldn't do it, then. A yeast designed to die at 10%, chilling the wine with a device similar to a wort chiller, then drawing off lees from the bottom would all serve well, I would think. Finish with a fine filter.

Not all wineries are secretive. Some vintners are more reticent than others, but I've also had lively conversations, especially at the smaller places.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I agree with what you are saying except I am not familiar with any yeast with a tolerance of only 10%.

 

[jswordy]

I agree with what you are saying except I am not familiar with any yeast with a tolerance of only 10%.

Me neither but they may have access to yeasts we do not get.

Even if not, they could chill them and drain the sediment. Filter prior to bottling. I am not saying they do, just that it is possible.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I think we can get all the yeasts that are commercially available. Maybe not in the amounts most small producers use but the 1kg brick is pretty much the industry standard packaging amount. But it is exactly about chilling, racking and filtering if you want to stop it before it finishes.

 

[grapeman]

I'm not sure all yeasts are available to home winemakers, at least in the small packet size. Lalvin puts out a half dozen for home winemakers, yet there are dozens of commercial ones. I'm not sure of the alcohol tolerance of the commercial ones, but I'm pretty sure the information is available. Here is a link to Lallemand yeast sold as the Lalvin brand. There are many not available to home winemakers.
http://www.lallemandwine.com/spip.php?rubrique33&id_mot=19&lang=en

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

If you rely on 80 gram packets then you are limited. But if you can handle 500grams then you have all the choices available.
Malvina

 

[Runningwolf]

Many of these 500 gram yeasts are available at Presque Isle.

 

[ibglowin]

500/5 = 100 (6 gallon batches) for the beloved "Amateur" wine maker........

Suppose I could "scale up" my process!

 

[Deezil]

It's still 30-ish of my 15-16gal batches

Does it freeze well or... Whats the best way to keep a package that large, for that long? Is it possible or would you just end up throwing the 2nd half out?... Maybe find someone local to split a yeast with? What are we lookin at here, to play with all the yeasties...