Making Wine like a winery....

[MalvinaScordaad]

Yes you are correct about something I overlooked completely. Buttery Flavors! And you are correct about Whites for sure. This past season I made a Saingee GSM Rose and I was worried when I did not mlf it. When I bottled it the finish was a tad harsh. I was kicking myself for not doing the mlf. In the bottle for 2 months that harshness in the finish has diminished where I think in a few months it will be a fine example of a Rhone Rose. I did not reserve juice for this, my focus was taken up on the primary wine. I did use sugar. My other problem was color. I took the saignee off a little too fast and I was left with a Rose that was too light. I had the primary wine I could have added for color but that had undergone mlf and I was afraid to use it . I considered Lysozyme but decided no. I did absolute filter with .20 so I didn't use Sorbate either. For the color I wanted that Rhone Color not the Blush Zinfandel Color. I did achieve it but resorted to another fix I rather not say. LOL I am thinking I spent more time and worry about the saignee then I did the primary wine which amounted to a half ton crush. Live and learn!
Malvina

 

[altavino]

A wine harsh after only 2 months in the bottle? Go figure!

You need patience not mlf. Bottle shock would also make the acid seem shaper as the fruit is muted after bottling.

Mlf would also potentialy lighten the rose colour . Yet another reason it isn't standard practice.

You have an absolute filter at home That can do .20 ? Wow ! that must have cost a pretty penny. I've never even heard of a home filter set up that could do absolute. Best most of us can do is .45 with a enolmatic tandem

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Yes Even Malvina gets impatient at times. I think the reason in this case is bottling so soon as opposed to usual reds I make which spend some time in tanks and then in barrels usually a 2 year process before bottling. I think I am not accustomed to that time frame for tasting a Rose. Nice Conversation Altavino.
Malvina
Patience such a wonderful inexpensive ingredient which is so hard to use.

 

[altavino]

That's cool Malvina,

Enjoy your rose ,

John

 

[Midwest Vintner]

Yes, I would agree that time will make wine better than if you are fining, filtering or mlf. It is just the natural way, which is less dramatic. The problem with many wines that may be great, but end up good is mostly due to the fact that people buy wine, then drink it in the next few days. A .20 micron seems like it might be too small, but I guess it does eliminate the use of sorbate, which isn't a bad thing. With a good balance, care and maybe just a little gas filler, you might be able to get away with years of aging without even any sulphites.

A problem with my commercial wines was that we were too quick to bottle, so it didn't get much bulk aging and then started selling a few months later. I hate doing it, because we made the wine to get a little age (fruit wines typically get better for 1-4 yrs). Still, they aren't too shabby, but not as good as the stuff we've cellared from years past doing home wine making. Still getting the hang of making 100+ gal batch minimums. We are now trying to get ahead, but it's starting to sell.....

 

[downunder]

Just read the whole thread from start to finish.....very interesting. For the members who were saying cooling jackets on tanks were a slow way of chilling wine.. you are right.. that's why heat exchangers are used. and huge ones. The last winery I worked at had tanks that held 1.5 million litres of wine. To chill the wine as it went into the tank start temp may be say 20 temp in tank minus 4 takes huge amounts of power to do that.
Was interested in the comments that wineries in the US add sugar... Any winery here found doing that here would be shut down pronto. Here concentrated grape juice is added. And Sorbate is never used commercially. Does this sometimes cause problems? only know of one case were literally thousands upon thousands of bottles of wine started re-fermenting......was a disaster.........only happened because the bottling crew did not follow operating procedures.
To sterile bottle at home..pretty hard.... I use alcohol instead of chemical methods..bit hard to hold all the equipment at 80c for 20 mins......most of it would melt.
More later

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Chaptalization is not legal in California so concentrates are used instead. Other states may allow the use of Sugar. You don't mention where you are from. Sorry "down Under" I get it Duh!
Malvina

 

[altavino]

cross flow filtration is the fastest way to sterile filter (20x as fast as plate filtering) , and is often combined with heat exchanger cooling .

so if you have 25000 litres of icewine you need to arrest a ferment on , you back up the cross flow trailer to your tank and away you go.

In Niagra there are mobile companies who provide this service specifically for ice wine.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

We have a sterile filter, but haven't used it. lol. I may try using a few different filters, bottle and open down the road. Sounds like a year or more experiment to see the actual results though.

Using concentrate can get you in trouble with the ATF if you are a bonded winery. Maybe state regulated wineries can do that? Juice is fine, but concentrates need approvals and must be on labels.

25000 liters???? lol. I'm working with ~400-1000 or 100-300 gallons for US folks.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

What do you think is the least expensive cross flow filtration setup you can put together?
Malvina

 

[altavino]

I think they start at about 50K for a basic one.

I know that here in Oliver and Up in Kelowna there are guys who have them mounted on trailers and you book them to come to your winery , usually close to finaly bottleing as opposed to using it to arrest a ferment.
the same thing is available in Washington and down in California. Often these companies also have mobile bottleing lines.

a quick google even finds one on the east coast
http://macrossflow.com/contact.htm



JE

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Thanks for the info. I am afraid a little too big for Malvina's operation. But I am sourcing some absolute level cartridges from Critical Process. They seem to be on top of this as manufacturers.
Malvina

 

[altavino]

If you find some could you post the model number of the cartridge?
What sort of housing?

I currently use two enolmatic tandems in a row with a 2 and a .45 micron cartridge in series

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I have a call in to them and they are getting back to me. I specified them for the Tenco Housing (enolmatic) I want the .20s to be absolute. I am not worried about the 1.0s and the .45 to be absolute. The representative did indicate the glass filter media was much better than the standard Polypropylene and only a few dollars more. The Polyethersulfone Media are absolute. We will see what he says tomorrow on pricing.
Malvina

 

[Runningwolf]

I am currently using a .2 filter for my apple wines with the enolmatic. I do not believe it is absolute. I normally use the .45 for everything but last year I had one bottle of apple blow a cork so I'm experimenting with the .2 this year. After doing some research it seems like apple can be notorius for this. I was just surprised only one bottle out of 60 decided to start a referment. The wine was fully stabilized. Any comments are appreciated. The .2 filters can be purchased at Presque Isle for about $50.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I am currently using a .2 filter for my apple wines with the enolmatic. I do not believe it is absolute. I normally use the .45 for everything but last year I had one bottle of apple blow a cork so I'm experimenting with the .2 this year. After doing some research it seems like apple can be notorius for this. I was just surprised only one bottle out of 60 decided to start a referment. The wine was fully stabilized. Any comments are appreciated. The .2 filters can be purchased at Presque Isle for about $50.

I do not believe the Presque Isle filter Cartridges are absolute. They have to be made of Polyethersulfone. Here is a description of one. VPS grade cartridges are validated using modified HIMA protocols at a challenge level of 106 organisms per cm² of filter media. (0.22 μm challenged with Brevundimonas diminuta)
(0.45 μm challenged with Serratia marscecens) (0.65 μm
challenged with Saccharomyces cerevisiae).

Here is a description of a polypropylene type that is not absolute. FPD cartridges are rated at 99.9% efficiencies at the rated pore
size and are designed to give maximum throughput because of
our unique gradient density construction. This design facilitates
cartridge cleaning.

The absolute variety look to be about 3 times the price. By the way bacteria will pass through a .45 while yeast will not. So your problem could have been bacteria and not yeast. I would not be surprised about apple as the majority acid is Malic. And ML bacteria are everywhere in a winery. Lysozyme may be the answer for better protection.
Malvina

 

[Runningwolf]

Thanks Malvina, as I was quite sure they were not based on the price. Great tip on the Lysozyme, thank you.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

I am running a PEP (>95%) and have a PES (>99%), but not used it, yet. Will be doing experiments on the next batches. I would think that at less a micron, you will be losing both color and flavor. For home wine making, I could not see going under .45.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I am running a PEP (>95%) and have a PES (>99%), but not used it, yet. Will be doing experiments on the next batches. I would think that at less a micron, you will be losing both color and flavor. For home wine making, I could not see going under .45.

Please let us not have that argument about color and flavor. Home winemaking why the distinction? This is after all "Making wine like a Winery" They don't sterile filter whites in a winery to lose color and flavor. If you want to eliminate bacteria then .45 will not do it. So what choice does a winery have but to use a filter in the .2-3 range.
Malvina

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Here is the information regarding the Critical Process Filter Cartridges for the Enolmatic Tenco Filter Housing.
all filters are 10 inch 2-226 O Ring Size Silicone O rings Flat Bottom

1 Micron Polyproplene 99 percent effective FPD1-0N00001S6
1 Micron Fiberglass 99 percent effective better through-put, easier cleaning FGD1-0N00001S6
.45 Micron Fiberglass 99 percent effective " " " FGD4-0N00001S6
.22 Micron PES Absolute VPS2-0N00001S6

Malvina